Successor to Rattle at Berlin Phil

What is so special about Berlin Philharmonic in comparison to other orchestras from other places and countries?  Are the players of BP more skillful musicians, more famous or more difficult to get on with because of strong individual personalities while rest of the players from other countries are more average and docile? 

Hi Romi, of course the Berlin Phil isn't the only great orchestra (I never said it was). Consider also, in no particular order, Vienna, Amsterdam, Leipzig, Dresden, London, to name just a few cities with great ensembles.  In the US there's Cleveland, Boston, Chicago, etc.  We could both, I'm sure, name others.  The point is that the Berlin is widely considered to be one of the leading orchestras and the position of music director in Berlin is one of the most prestigious roles a conductor can have.  My point is that a conductor not widely known has been appointed.  I ask if anyone has heard him and what can they tell us?  Is it a wise decision by the members of the orchestra, or a risky one?  

Romi,

it's a strange way of putting it. The Berliner Philharmoniker have undoubtedly occupied a position of preminence among the planet's great orchestras for some time, even though this preminence was also in part a function of a given repertoire, namely the great symphonic repertoire of the German and Austrian tradition.

This has certainly not prevented other orchestras from being excellent, but the truth is that the BPO have been something special, because of their sound, their ensemble, the wonderful competence with which they approached most of what we simply call 'symphonic music'.

In 1945, after the end of the War, in a destroyed Berlin, they rehearsed in a half wrecked cinema, had no regular conductor and were searching everywhere for a substitute to continue playing. This thing alone would speak for their dedication. After a suggestion from a member of the orchestra they chose to appoint a 33-years old unknown student of the Berlin Conservatory, Sergiu Celibidache, who turned out to be one of the absloute geniuses of the conducting art in the second half of the century. It was a chance, and was much more than a success.

Celibidache stayed as chief conductor for 7 years and more than 450 concerts, until Furtwaengler was allowed to resume his position.

At his death, Karajan was asked to become their Maestro; he had been contacted by Walter Legge to lead the newly, custom formed Philharmonia Orchestra, which was to become the BPO's rival. But Karajan chose the Berliner.

It is difficult to understand why the BPO have been such an icon of orchestral playing if one has not heard them live. They are enormously disciplined, dedicated and aware of their history. In recent years a number of orchestras have reached a position of excellence, all around the world - but it would be silly to deny that the amount of German orchestras wonderfully in control of the great symphonic literature is amazing.

I have loved the Chicago Symphony with Reiner, the Munchner Philharmoniker with the late Celibidache, but if I think of the sound of Schubert and Beethoven or Strauss and whatever you want, I think of the Berliner. Even if I never liked Karajan, and there are orchestras I love more, for other repertoires, for me - at the end of an era, because the era of the great symphonic culture is dead and gone - the symphonic orchestra is the Berliner Philharmoniker.

max,

Are you familiar with Petrenko's style?

If so, how is he compared to Rattle?

Hi kuma,

I am not familiar with Petrenko's style; I have tried a few videos on YouTube, such as this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqVz7Y2k4YU

and for sure I cannot comment on that, but it seems a radical departure from anything I was accustomed to as an idea of the Berliner's tradition. Truth probably is that the Berliner must today deal with a very different reality than the one they were facing when they went from Leo Borchard to Celibidache, then to Karajan; that was the era of the conductor-philosopher - at least, that was true for Furtwängler and Celibidache, less perhaps with Karajan - and the orchestra was closely tied to a cultural tradition; today, they have to sell, like everyone else: and this sets different parameters. It is a little strange to see such a sanguine, bodily, hot-blooded conductor as Petrenko on the podium of such a 'metaphysical' orchestra as the BPO; but I assume they have to strike, to impress, to engage, to stir, like any other performer. And for sure they have more very good reasons that I ignore, of course..

But the era of music inducing ideas is gone; now everything has to induce sensations, nothing more.

When Abbado went away rumors went around that the orchestra was not satisfied with the way Abbado used to rehearse, that Abbado made them work not enough; but the visceral, lyrical Abbado, compared to Petrenko, looks and sounds like a Buddha. It's too early to judge; but it seems to me that the most famous orchestra in the world is more concerned with the audience than with themselves...

The Berliner Philharmoniker's commercial era began with Karajan, no doubt; and it could be interesting, and amusing perhaps, to watch this video of Celibidache's return to their podium 38 years after he had been 'dismissed' to welcome Karajan, to conduct a performance of Bruckner's 7th that was said to have had interminable ovation.

Best

M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5UubCMF0ho

Thanks Max, your considered remarks and analysis carry much weight.  I don't know if Petrenko, so little recorded to date, is an especially marketable asset to the orchestra.  I suppose the spotlight will be on him more widely over the years before he takes over at the BPO.  Of course, recording is far less important these days as streaming takes over.  The BPO, now with its own music label, will doubtless consider him a marketable asset.  Some are saying that he was a compromise appointment as members of the orchestra couldn't reach a consensus.

I've heard Maris Jansons once conducting the BPO, in Strauss' Alpine Symphonie, in Salzburg; I'd have said he was a very palatable candidate. But everything today has unpredictable reasons for its being.

To me, the most important thing is that Christian Thielemans didn't become their chief conductor - because of well known rumors about his 'political' ideas, and because I saw him once in my hometown conducting the Münchner Philharmoniker and just before the concert, already standing on the podium, he noticed a man in a very distant seat with a tiny camera in his hand, and in the perfect silence, in a loud, harsh, commanding tone he addressed the poor guy with such a Kapò-ish and hideous tone, for the horrible crime of having thought of taking a picture, that ever since I wish him all the worst that can be wished to anyone.

Not that it worked, unfortunately.

Max,

That's interesting about Thielemann.

It's a pity that he seems to be afflicted with 'God-like Syndrome'. 

I very much enjoyed his concert with Dresden State but this type of behavior seems to be very opposite from humble Petrenko.

Here's his interview a few years ago.

Anyways, it's very interesting that it's the Berliner orchestra members who picked him. Certainly he's no equal to Karajan's charisma & marketing power but today, there are noone like him living.

Speaking of unique sound, I find Vienna Philharmoniker has a stronger house sound than the Berliner.

kuma,

I agree on the Wiener Philharmoniker, and their house sound is a little more 'sharp-edged' than the BPO's. Each orchestra has a unique voice, if their conductor or their tradition is influential enough. In my early twenties I discovered Fritz Reiner and the Chicago Symphony and was seduced by the clarity of their phrasing, the organicity of the overall 'narration'; I loved such un-romantic but very articulated approach. Then, in 1982, in Münich I personally got in touch with the Philharmoniker and the legendary Celibidache, and I discovered something unique.

In 2001, five years after Celi's death, the Münchner came to Torino with James Levine, then their chief conductor, and I was amazed at how wonderfully they still played.

The symphonic orchestra is the most complex and interesting of all musical sounds to me; each time it is like a moving, sonic, living novel. I'll never get tired of it.

If one thinks that the second half of the 20th century has had Furtwängler, Celibidache, Karajan, Solti, Bernstein, and then Muti and Abbado, or Haitink or Klemperer... it's difficult to imagine that a similar culture can be repeated.

It will be interesting to see Petrenko at work; it must have been a chief point that the new conductor was 'young'; there was a number of other great professionals in their 60s.

Thanks for the link,

M

I have subscribed for one year to the BPO's digital Concert Hall, streaming concerts and wonderful documentaries. The climate one breaths is of a definite and compact perfect musical world in itself..

I think that perhaps the BPO now consider itself the asset, and their conductor not much more than the cherry on the cake...

(In the video I linked to, Celibidache arrives at the first day of rehearsals with the BPO and stops and corrects them incessantly.

At a certain point, he says something like 'After all those years with Karajan, it will take a lot to make you loose the bad habits..'

The younger players look at him in amazement, but the older ones don't..)

Sorry for my huge bias for the late Celi. He was a real genius.

M

Hi Max - more interesting comments.  I heard the Berlin Phil twice live in London with Karajan, performing Bruckner 8 then Bruckner 5.  Whilst I'm not a Karajan enthusiast, his Bruckner was awe-inspiring and the Berlin players gave their all.  In those days the Karajan-sound was the Berlin-sound.  Under the reins of first Abbado, then Rattle, I think the orchestra has become less distinctive, but still one of the best in the world.  I enjoyed the Rattle Sibelius cycles in Berlin (via the Digital Concert Hall) and the following week broadcast by the BBC from London.  I'm sure you'll enjoy your subscription to their concerts.  Interesting comments about Thielemann - it's said he divided opinion within the BPO as one of the candidates. 

Solti produced wonderful committed performances with the Chicago SO, and I heard him live twice with the LPO  - he drew performances of immense power from the players even though he wasn't universally liked by some of the LPO players.

Reiner and the CSO were incredible.  He was a terror to work with and orchestras wouldn't allow such bullying these days, but his performances were often superb.  I bought a bargain box set recently of many of his CSO recordings - still not heard them all, but we just don't get such technically skilled playing from many orchestras today.

Max, ...and here we had these conductors in the first half of the 20th century.

Regarding the CSO, they are not the same since Reiner passed on. Solti doesn't quite do it for me and the rest that followed haven't established the same level of musical polish as Reiner did. I don't like everything he did ( that cold rat eyes! ) but respect him as what Karajan did to BPO. And it was a golden age of high fidelity where record companies fought to get the best sound off vinyl records. We do not get  the same level of sound you get from Living Stereo of half a century ago. CSO musicians are numble but somewhat academic altho, their personality change depends on who's on the podium. Technically competent and they can rise to the challenge but the overall tonal characteristics are on a cooler and restrained compared to the BPO.

kuma,

nice picture, thanks. I think I must have seen it before, but please: Walter, Toscanini, ?, Klemperer, Furtwängler... Who's the one in the middle? It's on the tip of my tongue..

I agree on Reiner, and I agree on Solti. In 1975 my mom gave me an LP of his recording of Prokofiev's Lieutenant Kijiè, and I was struck by the clarity, the unassuming-ness of his/their phrasing, the ease with which the structural content of the music was conveyed; perhaps a little 'for everyone', but so nice..

I began collecting his discs, and now I think I have almost all his recorded output in LP, including some rare and unusual Bach with the RCA Victor Symphony (I quote by heart). I too don't love everything he did, but his early 20th century is wonderful to me - his Stravinsky, Prokofiev, his Strauss. His LP of the two poems by Respighi - Pini & Fontane di Roma - are by far the best I've heard and will ever hear.

So here's a pic of him I love, in spite of the cold rat eyes:

with Bela Bartok, whom he had helped to come to the USA and then also financially, in many ways. This pic was taken by Reiner himself, and I love the abyss that separates the two glances - one distant, ill, spiritual and fierce, the other with both feet in the here and the now, determined, but deeply respectful of his companion - but the sense of friendship that also emerges.

Re: Petrenko - I have watched some videos, and it seems he's a very very nice person, capable but totally antipodal to Thielemann's attitude. For sure, trying to imagine Thielemann's feelings at the idea that a Jewish Russian has become the conductor of the Berliner Philharmoniker, is giving me sound and lasting pleasure..

Max

Chris,

apologizing in advance for my mild obsession, I can't but suggest that you listen (if you haven't already) to the Celibidache recordings of Bruckner on EMI.

He refused to record for his whole life, with arguments that ranged from acoustical to philosophical to 'cultural'. Yet, when he became Generalmusikdirektor of the Münchner Philharmoniker he had to accept that all their concerts were recorded by EMI, so he did.

He dedicated the last years of his deepest personal and musical commitment to the music of Bruckner, and the result is something which escapes the usual 'wagnerian-romantic-organistic-naive' labeling of AB, while opening windows on the structural and spiritual force of his symphonic thought. And the MPO play like angels sometimes...

For me, one wonderful example of how, and why, Celi was so superior to others in his Bruckner readings is in the first part of the last movement of the 8th symphony, when the fortissimo ostinato of the strings starts suddenly, hosting a loud and dramatic chorale by the whole brass section. In most recordings, that episode bursts like out of nowhere, at an absurdly fast tempo, like if it had to describe a legion of SS parading before the Führer; and with no structural relationship to what was there before; a mere effect, mere surprise.

In Celi's performance, the tempo of the episode - rather more controlled - is the consequence of the preceding sections, its pulse is slowly built by what was there before, and when it appears, it sound like an epilogue, like the discharging of a tension that we had been experiencing before. It doesn't sound like a militar aggression, but just like joy.

There's a video of his Bruckner's 8 made by Sony, in Tokyo, in the very late 80s; when that part arrives, it's wonderful to watch all the bows of the whole string section go back and forth in synchrony, in what resembles Philip Glass more than Wagner, to be true...

I love it. Sorry for hijacking the thread,

M

Max,

None other than Erich Kleiber is the one in the centre! 

IIRC, Berlin 1929.

Reiner:

This is very unusual very early Brandenburg Concerto lead by him. One of my favourite. 

Surprised that Reiner’s got the yen for a chamber music played with an exceptional vigor and rhythmic precision.

Thanks! My fault.

(Regarding that episode in the 4th Mov, 8th Symphony - in the Tokyo video: the joy I was talking about can be seen in the way Max, the percussion player, does the tympani part; and then, soon after that, the infinite tenderness of the same idea murmured by the horns..)

M

Max, thanks for recommending Celi's Bruckner.  I have to confess that I haven't heard any of his recordings, though from reading some reviews, I understand that his tempi, generally, got slower and slower in his later years.  I'll try to listen to some, thanks for your comments.  Incidentally, I've just heard Skrowaczewski doing Bruckner 3 with the LPO in a live recording - this was superb.

Skrowaczewski's Bruckner 9th is one of my fave along with Celibidache, Klemperer and Harnoncourt set.

 This is an extremely visual rendition and rendered with extreme details and impeccable timing. 

Celi's 9th comparatively, is personal and emotional approach with less theatrics ( within the reason, after all this is still Bruckner ). Individual instuments are well separated adding mroe colourful side lines ot the main story telling. There are lonely clarinets peaking out in the first movement I didn't even know existed. This is the first time the score has sufiicient flesh on the bones to make up a complete story with details. Celi gives each instruments the reasons for being there. Adagio isn't scary as others ( like Mravinsky's *Judgement Day* 9th ). There are no elements of fear, rather this is about a man looking up to see the other side of the world. There is more emphasis on the sense of release for the end of one's life. Similar to Mozart's Jupiter. Celi's 9th, comparartively is more organic.

I can't imagine how it is to experience it live.

Now I am most curious to hear Petrenko doing the Bruckner 9th. 

I like to thank some of you for explaining the significance of the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra.  I personally listen lately to a lot more classical music (I come from a Rock'n'Roll background) but I wish I had the 'ear' to distinguish different orchestra's and even different conductors.  However I did listen to Daniel Barenboim's interpretation of Wagner's Tannhauser 'Grand March' and even I noticed how fast the tempo was..!  It was as if he was in a great hurry to get somewhere and had to finish of conducting the piece as quickly as possible...  Surely an artistic error      

Hi Romi, you're starting on a great journey in to classical music.  The more you listen the more you will hear differences between different performers.  For instance in Beethoven symphonies, listen to Klemperer (sometimes slow tempi but powerful), or Karajan (often quick and smooth) or some of the original instrument performers such as John Eliot Gardiner, Hogwood or Pinnock.  I wish you great enjoyment in exploring! Regards, Chris

Yes thank you for the above.  In fact I have a friend who also is called Chris who I would call a classical music lover in the highest order.  He has introduced to me to various composers, he also gives me explanation as to how the particular composers have written their music,for example Mahler I believe a great exponent of counterpoint in music while Chris also mentioned the utter confidence of Beethoven to use a dissonant note in the very beginning of his first symphony which has never been done before.  Chris used to study Classical music and is currently writing his own piece, he is a very interesting fellow for me, very different from my 'Rock' friends.  Of course he has his own preference of conductors and would describe to me their different styles (according to his opinion).  Any way enough I do go on...! 

It's a long journey of discovery ahead. When I was thirteen, no-one in the house listened to classical music. When the parents were out only evening, I discovered my father's small collection of LPs and pulled one out to play.  I was blown away.  Beethoven violin concerto.  It was a couple of years before I cared who was doing all the playing. But you get to point where you hear the same piece by two different artists and develop preferences. That was 40 years ago. Classical music was the luckiest discovery I ever made.

Enjoy!

Further to my recent post I met Chris for our delightful weekly sessions in Classical music.  He played the first movement to the 3rd Symphony of Sebelius by three different conductors with three different orchestras.  One of the interpretations which made an impression on me was by John Barbirolli, it was so slow compared to the other two conductors, which gave a rich texture and gave a different complexion or feeling (I do not know the correct description) to the piece.  Wonderful stuff! 

Kuma,

while I don't want to steal the thread, I want to express my appreciation for the way you have described some elements of Celibidache's Bruckner 9th. It shows a sensible and sensitive understanding of his reasons, of what moved him to do music the way he did.

As for his famously 'slow' tempi, well apart from the several remarks by many reviewers and colleagues, there are Celibidache's own ideas and explanations, which can be found in his legacy of lessons, interviews, quotations - many of which available on youtube.

I have been lucky enough to attend a number of his lessons and seminars, and to reflect personally on his teachings for decades, so I know those reasons, and they - once inside his wonderful mind - are perfectly reasonable although a little complex to be explained here, by a humble disciple, stealing space to another topic.

But when you were there, and you listened the way he listened, there was no slow tempo, there was the right tempo, which - as he painfully worked to teach and explain through his whole life - had not necessarily to do with speed.

Friendly,

Max

A couple of weeks ago my Sony TV updated the apps available and I noticed an app that streams Berlin Philharmonker concerts had been added to the menu. Looks interesting. I can't comment on the quality as I couldn't fathom out how to view the free concert.

https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/info