Problem with multi-disc albums on Naim app

Adrian, you above example for me demonstrates why one size doesn't fit all. I have many albums featuring guest artists along with the main alum artist. I like to see all these contributing artists listed for the track, but I want my album artist its to show as the main album artist. Using dBPoweramp to rip and tag, and Minimserver feeding my Naim Streamer and Naim app control point this is what I get...

However I always check and if necessary, which is most often, adjust/edit the meta data when I rip using it smart meta data edit screen, and some meta data sources are more reliable than others, and dBPoweramp lets you filter out less reliable sources.

Simon

One of the features I like about Minimserver  is the way it can be configured to handle multi album sets. The streaming app has never had any difficulty indexing and displaying and I'm sure what you are experiencing has something to do with how the files are tagged.

Harry, I'm glad to hear that for you "the streaming app has never had any difficulty indexing and displaying"--but it has for me. So, if you're willing, how about posting some more detailed information about how you configure Minimserver to handle multi-album sets?

The number of tags available for classical Music really bites us here. You have to make a decision how you want to tag your albums. For multiple disk, I have decided to go with the tracknumber and disk number items and strip CD1 etc from the title.

This way, the Naim app gets the right information and ordering of the tracks from the CD.

At some point, still thinking in CD's and disks is a bit silly in this digital age. I often search music in the Naim app on composer and composition, then finding the artists that I like to hear. Like most people, I have different performances of the same composition. If the composition is on one disk or more is hardly relevant anymore.

I don't know if it'll help, but you could also try deleting the Naim app from your iPad and reinstalling it.

I only say this, because I had some troubles with moving a folder of music around on my server, which Asset picked up and refreshed correctly. Browsing my server directly on my UQ2 found the music I'd moved, but the app didn't - until i reinstalled it. 

I strip out all tags, and I mean everything. I think this is the key.  I then tag using just the fields I want to use and for multi album sets I number the disks. There is a setting in Minimserver which looks for this and will display a set of albums as a single list.  If you prefer to see separate albums you should tag each of them accordingly.

I also think it’s silly to think of albums as  CDs and I now tend to group all tracks on a multi disk album in one folder under one album name. But despite this my back brain still thinks in terms of CD1, CD2 etc. and in quite a few cases in terms of Side 1, Side 2 etc. It dies hard.

Totally agree.  I almost always re-tag my multi-disk sets to make them appear as one 'big' album when that makes sense. Something like Quadrophenia -- it spanned 4 vinyl sides and 2 cd's, but I am happy to have it appear as ONE album on my server.  For something like the reissues of Led Zep, where the 'bonus' cd has additional material, I often still do the same.  I run it all together as if it's one cd, and then just play what I want.  I use the iPhone a lot, and with its small display, discerning among multiple cd's is hard. (I really should use the iPad more often, but the iPhone is always in my pocket and thus handiest!)

For classical music, all bets are off. It's not Naim's fault -- NO system of tagging for classical is perfect.  Lots has been written about this recently.  We're all on our own, making compromises, with classical.  Who even is the "Artist" for classical recordings? If it's a cellist, ok I use the cellist's name. But if it's a Beethoven symphony . . . I tend to use Beethoven.  It's all a mess really.

Harry despite doing what you say and what I just posted above, isn't it interesting that when we play certain "albums," we still feel the urge to get up and flip the record over??  There are many albums from the 70's that are so ingrained in my head that when the last song of the first side is over, I am feeling that urge!  These memories run DEEP.

I haven't cued up a stylus since '86 Bart, possibly '85. Yet everything I have ever owned on vinyl still gets mentally referenced according to side and track on side in question. Even Hi Res stuff I've downloaded decades later. It does indeed run deep and I'm kinda happy about that. 

That's what music is about for me.  Where I was in my life when I first heard it, etc.  The 70's music I still listen to, now as hi res downloads -- a part of that enjoyment is the great times I had in college when I wore out those vinyl records.

Exactly.

I would like to see Naim offer a course on this topic to users of Naim streamers. There are so many frustrations in downloading multi disc albums and multi artist albums.

Equally, HDtracks, Qobuz etc. should be encouraged to package their downloads logically. Operas, Symphonies, Masses etc. in which the tracks do not appear in the right order are a royal pain in the ass!

Hmmm ... but this is an issue with tagging and the UPnP server itself - which unless you're using a UnitiServe would be a little difficult to give 'training' on. 

It's actually nothing to do with the streamers - they only display exactly what the UPnP server shows it.

Phil

Throughout this thread (which I started), various respondents have repeatedly said some variation on what Phil Harris says above -- it's not the streamer, it's what the UPnP server delivers to the streamer.

Am I missing or misunderstanding something? That seems to be only part of the picture. The UPnP delivers metadata to the streamer--or, since this thread is focused on the Naim app's display of multi-album sets, to the controller app. As I have tried to make clear from the start, as delivered by MinimServer running on my Synology NAS, the exact same metadata displays differently on different apps. I also own an Auralic Aries, which can be controlled by various apps, including Linn Kinsky, Linn Kazoo, and Auralic Lightning DS. All of these apps use MinimServer as well, and all display multi-disc sets correctly. With multi-album sets, for Discs 2, 3, etc., only the Naim app lists each track as a separate, discrete album, showing a separate album cover image for each track.

The controller app is a form of software, right? And each app is coded in its own specific way so as to organize and display the data sent to it -- correct?

As I posted previously, I have found a workaround solution (by changing the metadata for multi-album sets so that for each disc the “X of X” field is blank or all are set to “1 of 1"). So, I'm not complaining or blaming Naim. I'm just trying to figure out why, of all the control apps I've used, it's only the Naim app that has such difficulty with the multi-album metadata fed to it.

Tried this? From the minimserver website: 

Note 3: The Naim app has a default sort order setting of A-Z. You need to disable this setting to prevent ordering problems with multidisc albums.

Sorry Phil, my post was in the context of using a Unitiserve, which I do. 

Thanks for that reference. No, I haven't tried it. And must confess that I can't quite figure out what it means. The note says to "disable this setting," but where? In the Naim app? I've dug around in the setting (gear icon) of the Naim app and I can't find a way to change "default sort order." Or do I make the change in MinimServer settings? Any help appreciated.

This, for me, is one of the challenges of streaming audio -- that the user guides tend to be written in technical terms that assume a level of knowledge I don't have, or are in other ways vague and obscure (at least to me). I'm neither a computer know-nothing nor a Geek Squad expert -- somewhere in-between, maybe toward the less than knowledgeable end of the scale, but still find myself mystified by most of the MinimServer Wiki user manual.

In an earlier post in this thread, David O'Higgins wrote, "I would like to see Naim offer a course on this topic to users of Naim streamers." I know what he means. It would be so helpful to have clear, straightforward, step-by-step guidance for use of the Naim  streamer and app, written for those who are not computer experts. I find that Naim's own user manual often leaves me shaking my head and turning to this forum in hopes of finding guidance in plain English.

Understand your frustration and agree that two apps showing different displays when sent data by the same server points to different interpretations or data handling on the app side, not the server side. 

Not totally sure but they might be referring to the naim app A-Z ordering option that is the leftmost in the grouping at the right side at the top of the view of album titles. There is A-Z, which toggles the order, then a lined box (for icon plus title and artist, all in a column), then a grid (for icons in a grid...), then the magnifying glass (for searching). Note that repeat presses on the list or grid buttons cycle through three different sizes of cover art. The most obvious change in A-Z vs non-A-Z for me is when viewing by Date - with MinimServer, A-Z "on" (highlighted as white, letters of the alphabet down the right side) shows increasing years while "off" (duller text, dots down the right side) shows decreasing years. With Album view, "on" puts titles starting with numbers at the end; "off" puts them at the beginning. I don't have any multi-disc sets tagged your way, so I wasn't able to check the situation that you described. 

Hope me this is useful. 

Regards, alan 

Thanks, alan33, for the very easy-to-understand instructions. I toggled "A-Z" off, cleared and refreshed UPnP cache, and no change in the display of discs 2+ in multi-album sets. But I'll keep trying, when I find some free time. Thanks again.

To answer the OP, the answer really is in the tags. Different control apps interpret the tags in different ways; there are lots of tags that can be used, so there's a high potential for difference between manufacturers and no genuine standard available. Hence the different outputs. 

Just as as the app doesn't know what the files and tags 'mean', so the UPNP server doesn't really know either. You can actually tag an album as a completely different album - artwork and everything - and it will play fine though all the information about it wil be wrong. All any of this kit does is read the tags you (or someone) provides. The only solution is to edit the tags. You'll need an editor such as MP3tag to get in there and make changes. Try some different things and see what works for you. 

It is down to tags but as other say it's how the control point (app) presents the information in the tags.

In many apps (including Naim and Kazoo) will display the browse tree as presented by the UPnP server.  This is where the "Artists" and "Albums" and "Composers" and "Genre" etc structure comes from.  The sorting within that can either follow the UPnP server's sorting or can be strict A-Z; some Apps allow you to switch - with the Naim App the switching between sort orders is done with the little A-Z icon (if it's bright then the App sorts in A-Z, if greyed then the app follows the server sort order).

on the other hand apps such as Lumin and Lightning DS completely disregard the UPnP's browse tree (except in folder view) and they create their own browsing based on a few tags ignoring the rest.

As for separating discs of multi-disc sets. If you have a Album title including "CD1 of n", "CD 2 of n" etc. that is always going to display as individual albums as only when the album names are identical will the tracks be seen as a single album (there is an exception with Minimserver where you use [Disc n] - with the square brackets). If the disc number tag has "1 of n" that might cause an issue - I would always just have a single number there.

Also check that you have nothing in and group or grouping tag - these can cause Minimserver to spit discs unless you understand exactly what it's doing.

I assume you've read this from the MinimServer user guide...

Multi-disc albums

Some albums contain multiple discs (physical CDs). For some multi-disc albums, you might want to see a view of the album contents which includes information about which items are on which discs. For other multi-disc albums, you might want to view the entire album contents as a single list in the same way as you view a single-disc album. MinimServer supports both of these options.

For albums whose contents are tagged with the same album title and contain more than one DISCNUMBER tag value, MinimServer displays the album contents as a merged list of items with no disc information shown. The tracks are sorted first by disc number and then by track number. The tracks are renumbered to match the order of the merged list, so if disc 1 of the album has track numbers 1 to 10 and disc 2 has track numbers 1 to 4, the tracks from disc 2 will be displayed as track numbers 11 to 14.

If you want to see the album contents displayed as separate discs, you need to use additional tags. The simplest way to do this is to tag the album tracks with the album title suffixed by a disc identifier in the form <code>[disc</code> <code><n>]</code> or <code>(disc</code> <code><n></code>, where <code><n></code> is the disc number. For example, you might tag the tracks from the first disc of the album Ummagumma with the album title '<code>Ummagumma</code> <code>[disc</code> <code>1]</code>' and the tracks from the second disc with the album title '<code>Ummagumma</code> <code>[disc</code> <code>2]</code>'. If you do this, MinimServer displays the album as a list of items grouped by disc number with selectable headings marking the start of each disc, and no track renumbering. These disc headings are displayed as '<code>>></code> <code>Disc</code> <code><n></code>' choices, where <code><n></code> is the disc number, and they can be selected to add an individual disc to the playlist or view its contents. See the Hide Contents choice section for more information about how to use these '<code>>></code> <code>Disc</code> <code><n></code>' choices.

In some cases, an album disc may have a meaningful subtitle as well as a disc number. If you tag the tracks from this disc with the disc subtitle by using the DISCSUBTITLE tag, the album contents will be displayed as separate discs and the selectable heading for this disc will be displayed with the subtitle name instead of the disc number. For example, you might tag the tracks from the first disc of the album Ummagumma with the DISCSUBTITLE tag value '<code>Live</code>' and the tracks from the second disc with the DISCSUBTITLE tag value '<code>Studio</code>'. If you do this, the selectable disc headings for this album will be displayed as '<code>>></code> <code>Live</code>' and '<code>>></code> <code>Studio</code>' instead of '<code>>></code> <code>Disc</code> <code>1</code>' and '<code>>></code> <code>Disc</code> <code>2</code>'.

For information about different options for grouping the contents of multi-disc albums into folders, see the Albums and folders section.

Hope the three posts are okay...

As I understand it you want multi-disc albums to appear as a single list with (eg) Disc 1 tracks numbers 1-11 and then Disc 2 tracks as 12-24.

From the post above that means that all the tracks should have the ALBUM tag "This Album" and then DISCNUMBER 1 or 2 as relevant. Nothing else should be needed.

Here is a concrete example of the problem, although not strictly to do with multi-disc, the issue is the same. Last night I bought Haydn's 'Nelson Mass' from ProStudioMasters. The recording includes, at track 8, an Offertory Hymn, 'Insanae et Vanae Curae'. After download, I copied the file to my NAS and then opened Nserve and selected the Unitiserve icon. On searching for my new recording, I was pesented with two albums. One contains the 'Nelson Mass' and the other contains 'Insanae et Vanae Curae'. The reason for this is that the artist information for the Offertory Hymn is different to the rest of the tracks, altough they are intended to be played in a sequence which includes the Hymn as track 8.

I know that I can edit the tags to ensure that all tracks have the same artist information, and re-copy to my NAS, but is that my responsibility? Should ProStudioMasters have prevented the problem by editing the tags themselves? Or is there something wrong in the way that I am using the Unitiserve to manage  the delivery of what I want to hear? After all, that is what I bought it for (and for painless ripping).

If using Minimserve would have avoided this problem, can somebody please explain in laymans language exactly how to go about it in terms of hardware, software etc.

This is a pretty trivial example compared to some of the struggles I have had to get 50 or 60 opera tracks to play in sequence, and I still haven't tackled the fallout from 'Pavarottis 100 Greatest' (or whatever it is), which has left dozens of smiling bearded men looking at me every time I scroll down the HD Collection on the NAS.

Help!

It looks to me as if there must be a little more to it than that. I can see that the information can only come from the server, but the streamer/app must have some control over what it displays and where/how it presents it. How else do you explain this:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...-last-played-anomaly