Problem with multi-disc albums on Naim app
Posted by: JLH on 27 June 2015
I'm using Naim app on iPad to control UnitiQute2. Streaming from Synolgy NAS running MinimServer. I've ripped hundreds of CDs, some using dbPoweramp, some via iTunes. For classical albums, the Naim app is doing strange things for multi-disc sets. Generally, all is well for Disc 1 but for Discs 2, 3, etc., the Naim app lists each track as a separate, discrete album, showing a separate album cover image for each track. in another system, I use an Auralic Aries streamer, and Auralic's iPad app (called Lightning DS), which also runs via MinimServer, does NOT have the same problem. It lists each album in a multi-disc set with tracks in order. So, can anyone help me figure out how to make the Naim app properly organize and display multi-disc sets? Thanks for any guidance.
screen shot
It's actually nothing to do with the streamers - they only display exactly what the UPnP server shows it.
Phil
It looks to me as if there must be a little more to it than that. I can see that the information can only come from the server, but the streamer/app must have some control over what it displays and where/how it presents it. How else do you explain this:
I explained it ... I explained it!
Here is a concrete example of the problem, although not strictly to do with multi-disc, the issue is the same. Last night I bought Haydn's 'Nelson Mass' from ProStudioMasters. The recording includes, at track 8, an Offertory Hymn, 'Insanae et Vanae Curae'. After download, I copied the file to my NAS and then opened Nserve and selected the Unitiserve icon. On searching for my new recording, I was pesented with two albums. One contains the 'Nelson Mass' and the other contains 'Insanae et Vanae Curae'. The reason for this is that the artist information for the Offertory Hymn is different to the rest of the tracks, altough they are intended to be played in a sequence which includes the Hymn as track 8.
I know that I can edit the tags to ensure that all tracks have the same artist information, and re-copy to my NAS, but is that my responsibility? Should ProStudioMasters have prevented the problem by editing the tags themselves? Or is there something wrong in the way that I am using the Unitiserve to manage the delivery of what I want to hear? After all, that is what I bought it for (and for painless ripping).
If using Minimserve would have avoided this problem, can somebody please explain in laymans language exactly how to go about it in terms of hardware, software etc.
This is a pretty trivial example compared to some of the struggles I have had to get 50 or 60 opera tracks to play in sequence, and I still haven't tackled the fallout from 'Pavarottis 100 Greatest' (or whatever it is), which has left dozens of smiling bearded men looking at me every time I scroll down the HD Collection on the NAS.
Help!
This problem is down to the fact there are no standards in tagging.
No, you shouldn't HAVE to manually tag things yourself, but to be frank its down to the fact the people creating the files (and perhaps those selling) just don't care.
Each album should (IMO) have track number, track titles, artist per track and an overriding album artist (where needed because artist varies per track).
Eloise
There is no 'one size fits all' or 'click this and this in this order and you're done' solution to tagging ... Everyone has their own way that they want their tagging to be.
*MYSELF* I would never download music and throw it into the middle of a big bucket of other music and then wonder how to fix it - I would always check and (if necessary) sanitise the tagging with the newly downloaded music on, say, a USB stick so that it's all in one place.
Taking the Pavarotti example above I'd have thrown those files on a USB stick, pointed "The Godfather" (a Tag Editor that is an absolute pig to learn but once you have learned it then it's really good for doing batch tag editing) at the files, blasted through the tags on Godfathers grid tag view and made them consistent and then written the updated tags back to the files.
I'm guesstimating no more than two minutes actual work.
The problem comes when you have loads of badly tagged music dumped into a folder with a load of other badly tagged music and you're faced with what looks like an insurmountable pile to get through ... especially when music has been randomly dumped into folders without any sort of structure - it all starts to look like trying to deconstruct a spaghetti bolognase back into its constituent parts including the original cow and tomatoes!
The simple fact is that it isn't possible to give a 'how to' list that can just be followed blindly - there are some good tools out there to use for retagging and reorganising files but just as with DIY, owning the right tools doesn't mean that you can automatically put up shelves correctly ... you have to learn how to use them and where to appropriately apply them.
Phil
There is no 'one size fits all' or 'click this and this in this order and you're done' solution to tagging ... Everyone has their own way that they want their tagging to be.
Phil, quite agree with your post here and the no "one size fits all" philosophy.
One question: does the UnitiServe support the AlbumArtist tag "correctly" that is an album is recognised by a collection of tracks with identical ALBUM tag and ALBUMARTIST tag (or if no ALBUMARTIST tag matching ARTIST tag)?
There is no 'one size fits all' or 'click this and this in this order and you're done' solution to tagging ... Everyone has their own way that they want their tagging to be.
*MYSELF* I would never download music and throw it into the middle of a big bucket of other music and then wonder how to fix it - I would always check and (if necessary) sanitise the tagging with the newly downloaded music on, say, a USB stick so that it's all in one place.
Taking the Pavarotti example above I'd have thrown those files on a USB stick, pointed "The Godfather" (a Tag Editor that is an absolute pig to learn but once you have learned it then it's really good for doing batch tag editing) at the files, blasted through the tags on Godfathers grid tag view and made them consistent and then written the updated tags back to the files.
I'm guesstimating no more than two minutes actual work.
The problem comes when you have loads of badly tagged music dumped into a folder with a load of other badly tagged music and you're faced with what looks like an insurmountable pile to get through ... especially when music has been randomly dumped into folders without any sort of structure - it all starts to look like trying to deconstruct a spaghetti bolognase back into its constituent parts including the original cow and tomatoes!
The simple fact is that it isn't possible to give a 'how to' list that can just be followed blindly - there are some good tools out there to use for retagging and reorganising files but just as with DIY, owning the right tools doesn't mean that you can automatically put up shelves correctly ... you have to learn how to use them and where to appropriately apply them.
Phil
Phil, a few more posts like this and you will have the bones of the Naim course I was suggesting earlier!!
Phil, thinking further about your reply. All I want to do is buy an album, put it on my NAS, locate it in Nstream and play it. This is exactly analogous to buying a CD and playing it. Any other potential benefits of manipulating tags are irrelevant to me - what is left of my life is too short for that.
Of course, when I play it, I expect it to come out in the right order, like a CD.
In the vast majority of my experience, this is what happens. The exceptions centre on offerings which were previously multi-CD, and albums with multiple artists, mostly classical.
In in the case of the Haydn mentioned earlier, all credit to ProStudioMasters. They thanked me for pointing it out, changed the file tags and allowed me to download again. And they gave me a voucher for 20% off my next purchase. That is what I call service with a smile. And it is no more than we should expect of any download purchase, in my view.
That's indeed a very good service.. and pretty rare.
But honestly, the music companies have made a mess of their libraries. They are responsible for delivering the files to the stores, it is not the stores that tag music.
Also, a lot of the tools out there do use libraries that tag the music for you. For instance Apple's iTunes, which is also an easy to learn tag editor.
Don't get mad at Phil or Naim, it is not their fault. ID3 has a lot of tags in their framework now that would support tagging opera's (for instance) wonderfully, but nobody has implemented this. Even if Naim would read all this tags, the UPnP servers do not support it.
When it comes to metadata, the Music Industry is a mess at large and it won't get any better, if ever. Unfortunately.
So, if it makes you that mad, I'd say: stick with CDs. It will be a format that won't change soon and probably will be supported for quite some time to come.
But Jmtennapel, the problem is that High Definition has overtaken CD for SQ, IMHO, so the battlefront has moved from the crappy initial implementation of CD hardware to the current crappy implementation of HD downloads. Plus ca change.........
But Jmtennapel, the problem is that High Definition has overtaken CD for SQ, IMHO, so the battlefront has moved from the crappy initial implementation of CD hardware to the current crappy implementation of HD downloads. Plus ca change.........
You may need to embrace the change and, as Phil writes, get comfortable with a decent tag editor so that you can check and edit and save the tags (metadata) BEFORE copying new music to the server. I know you posted above you don't want to . . . but also such is likely necessary.
I buy relatively little new music, so I'm only doing this once or twice a week. You can talk yourself into thinking it's "fun"
It may not be fun but it can be satisfying. Once your music is tagged with information that you know is 100% accurate and compiled/slanted/sent back EXACTLY as suits you, the padding, static and absolute rubbish that a lot of stuff comes tagged with (and can be tagged with from databases when ripping on a connected PC/Mac) just won't seem good enough any more.
The crap that gets attached to poor innocent files looks almost willful at times. Like the office dogsbody had the job dumped on them and they have expressed their disgust with the quality of their work.
As I always mention if I remember, I have found that the best way to retag an album is to start by stripping all tags out as opposed to trying to edit certain fields. dBpoweramp (at least the PC version) has a "convert to" function which just strips out all the tags you tell it to. Like a good, industrial strength weed killer. It has made many hidden tracks and more occasionally, albums appear as if by magic because some obscure tag that I hadn't noticed had caused the server to render them incorrectly.
Well, I have to disagree Harry. The unitiserve ripped my 2000 CDs with very little editing required and the results are just fine for me. Also, 95% of my downloads require no intervention from me to allow me to retrieve them and listen to them when I want.
i remember the bad old days of ripping LP to cassette (home taping killing music?!!), and having to hand write the contents on the inlay card. I'm not going back there!!
Well, I have to disagree Harry. The unitiserve ripped my 2000 CDs with very little editing required and the results are just fine for me. Also, 95% of my downloads require no intervention from me to allow me to retrieve them and listen to them when I want.
i remember the bad old days of ripping LP to cassette (home taping killing music?!!), and having to hand write the contents on the inlay card. I'm not going back there!!
It will partly depend on what your requirements are. If you are ripping mainstream music then generally the tagging will be correct with just minor changes to suit your requirements.
On classical it gets more difficult - different spellings of composers, composer where artist should be, debates about what information should go in the title of a track, usually no support for separate orchestra/ensemble and soloist, no support for Composer tag... the difficulties go on.
Well, I have to disagree Harry. The unitiserve ripped my 2000 CDs with very little editing required and the results are just fine for me. Also, 95% of my downloads require no intervention from me to allow me to retrieve them and listen to them when I want.
i remember the bad old days of ripping LP to cassette (home taping killing music?!!), and having to hand write the contents on the inlay card. I'm not going back there!!
It will partly depend on what your requirements are. If you are ripping mainstream music then generally the tagging will be correct with just minor changes to suit your requirements.
On classical it gets more difficult - different spellings of composers, composer where artist should be, debates about what information should go in the title of a track, usually no support for separate orchestra/ensemble and soloist, no support for Composer tag... the difficulties go on.
Eloise, you're right, especially with classical. My worst example is an album which has the venue (Wigmore Hall) as the title. Annoyingly, my Unitiserve refuses to let me edit it to something sensible. And as for genres, why do they even bother!
.... and on. This is before we get to typos and lousy grammar.
There is no 'one size fits all' or 'click this and this in this order and you're done' solution to tagging ... Everyone has their own way that they want their tagging to be.
*MYSELF* I would never download music and throw it into the middle of a big bucket of other music and then wonder how to fix it - I would always check and (if necessary) sanitise the tagging with the newly downloaded music on, say, a USB stick so that it's all in one place.
Taking the Pavarotti example above I'd have thrown those files on a USB stick, pointed "The Godfather" (a Tag Editor that is an absolute pig to learn but once you have learned it then it's really good for doing batch tag editing) at the files, blasted through the tags on Godfathers grid tag view and made them consistent and then written the updated tags back to the files.
I'm guesstimating no more than two minutes actual work.
The problem comes when you have loads of badly tagged music dumped into a folder with a load of other badly tagged music and you're faced with what looks like an insurmountable pile to get through ... especially when music has been randomly dumped into folders without any sort of structure - it all starts to look like trying to deconstruct a spaghetti bolognase back into its constituent parts including the original cow and tomatoes!
The simple fact is that it isn't possible to give a 'how to' list that can just be followed blindly - there are some good tools out there to use for retagging and reorganising files but just as with DIY, owning the right tools doesn't mean that you can automatically put up shelves correctly ... you have to learn how to use them and where to appropriately apply them.
Phil
Thanks to Eloise and others for the tips. Yes, I've waded through parts of the online Wiki user guide for MinimServer, including the page you referenced. I do not find it to be a user-friendly guide, but that may be due to my limited technical knowledge. It would be helpful if the guide provided screen-shot illustrations for each step.
David O'Higgins has slightly diverted from the topic of my original post that started this thread, but that's perfectly fine -- I understand his frustration with the sometimes incorrect or incompetent tagging on music we pay to download. And I thoroughly support his call for a user-friendly "course" or guide. Even if there is no "one size fits all" guide, there could be something more user-friendly, coherent, and comprehensive than the experience of reading the current Naim guides and searching through forum posts.
Phil Harris, I have quoted you in this reply because I think you are setting up a straw-man caricature when you refer to a user who does nothing more than mindlessly "download music and throw it into the middle of a big bucket of other music and then wonder how to fix it," who wants "a 'how to' list that can just be followed blindly." I don't think those words describe anyone who has contributed to this thread, and probably apply to few if any purchasers of Naim gear.
When I download music or rip CDs, I take the time to check and adjust the metadata. I use dBPoweramp and mp3Tag, though after many months of use I still feel like a student of both. I read this and other forums, seeking help. If I just wanted to "download music into a bucket," then there is iTunes for that, and a Sonos streamer to distribute it around the house.
When it comes to streaming audio, we're all part of something still relatively new, and trying to make it work. The thing is, it still seems to take a lot more work than it should.
Here's a question -- What would it take for the high-end streaming audio experience (with Naim or similar gear) to be as simple and relatively painless as using iTunes and Sonos? I love the sound quality of my Naim streaming gear (now using an ND5 XS), far superior to what iTunes and Sonos deliver. But, like others on this forum, I'm willing to put in the work to get that better sound. I suspect we're a small niche group. If the high-end streaming audio experience required less work, if it were more seamless and intuitive and frustration-free, then might Naim find a more receptive market for its products? At least then, Phil, you'd have to deal with far fewer forum posts and inquires!
Here's a question -- What would it take for the high-end streaming audio experience (with Naim or similar gear) to be as simple and relatively painless as using iTunes and Sonos? I love the sound quality of my Naim streaming gear (now using an ND5 XS), far superior to what iTunes and Sonos deliver. But, like others on this forum, I'm willing to put in the work to get that better sound. I suspect we're a small niche group. If the high-end streaming audio experience required less work, if it were more seamless and intuitive and frustration-free, then might Naim find a more receptive market for its products? At least then, Phil, you'd have to deal with far fewer forum posts and inquires!
It is still a little way off... But the Roon system might be a solution if Naim were able to work with Roon and incorporate the RoonSpeaker protocol as an alternative to (but not suggesting a replacement for) UPnP.