NDX, nServe, nDAC dilemma

Tony

We have just done this very demo in various dealers last week. There was one dealer who actually preferred the NDX playing back music via the stream from the UnitiServe than the UnitiServe connected to the nDAC via SPDIF.

However, the rest and including me, felt the UnitiServe/nDAC delivered better performance overall but it was close. What really made the difference larger was moving up the ladder with better digital cables.

The NDX is a stunningly sounding product with some great feature but we feel the DAC edges it for the moment.

One thing we also demonstrated, and every dealer agreed, the UnitiServe music playback was way ahead of most transports we tried even using the same digital cables.

We have one dealer that no longer sells high end CD players, their preferred offering being UnitiServe with nDAC and I have to agree with him this being one of the best digital sources at the price point on the market.

However, you should try them yourself and you decide.

Good luck

Gordon

Prepare to be inundated with replies ! If a stand mounted speaker fits the bill, have a listen to the Amphion   Argon 3. They do so many things right. I've just reviewed them for Son & Image magazine and I'm buying the review pair. Transparent, articulate, powerful and good to look at too. They work extremely well on the end of Nait 5 and 82/HiCap/250.

Jan 

> Am I right in saying that combination should provide much higher quality rips from CD than my iMac?

Not in my view - a rip is a rip. 010101110 ripped by iTunes is the same as 010101110 ripped by anything else. If I add 2+3 on a cheap calculator I get 5, if I then use a £1m computer system I still get 5. There may be other reasons to prefer the £1m system, but doing basic sums is not one of them. If you were using iTunes to create MP3s that would be different, but we are talking lossless with WAV, AIFF, FLAC and ALAC and so the music content is the same. The non-music bits will vary. 

If I were you and wanted to put my music on an iMac then I'd use a £99 MF V-Link with a £20 Belkin USB cable between V-Link and computer and a Chord optical cable to connect the V-Link to the S/PDIF on the Naim DAC. I'd then use iTunes to rip CDs to AIFF or ALAC. It is not the only way, but it works quite well and sounds pretty good to me. This is because of the Naim DAC and the way it buffers input - the MF V-Link eliminates some of the less impressive bits of the Mac. A halide bridge, hiFace and INT202 are other ways to do this. 

However, an all Naim system will also work well - the nServe will be the perfect UPnP server for the NDX, alternative it can feed the Naim DAC through a high quality S/PDIF to S/PDIF connection. No iMac required for this. I think this lacks some flexibility, but if that doesn't matter then go for it. 

Another way if you want wireless is to use a Sonus network - I'm highly impressed with the results, but it does not do hi-res if that's important. The Sonus will pick up files from a NAS and iTunes Library and let you play all through the Naim DAC. The Sonus presents a clean PCM stream to the Naim DAC, which locks in, buffers the input and then plays it exceptionally well. I use this because of the convenience of wireless. 

As a benchmark, if you are auditioning, I'd put some WAV files on a USB stick and connect this to the rear port on the Naim DAC powered by a 555PS - this gives the best results I've heard from a digital set-up. 

I think you can achieve very good results with your Mac - it won't sound better than an all Naim system, but ....

All the best, Guy

Hi Tony,

What a great position to be in - so many choices!

Like Guy I would think about including a test with an added PSU on the nDAC/NDX - you will probably get curious  in due course, whichever route you choose.

My suspicion is that the systems you are trying will not come down to a black & white A is better than B. Everything I have read, and heard, has been more subtle.

The only thing I would like to emphasise is the glories of the Naim ripping solution. I pretty much agree with Guy's piece, BUT for all that being able to simply plonk a CD in a box and have it rip the CD, get the cover art, and make the files available to you via a standard interface makes the process amazingly painless - I'll now wait for Tog to chip in with the Vortexbox.

I have bought more CDs in the past three weeks than the previous three years, and am listening to my system almost all the time I am at home.

It has also encouraged me to properly organise my index my music - I know I could have done it in the past, but just ripping the music, and transferring it onto my file server was fag enough!

Please keep your impressions flowing.

M

P.S. Are you going to investigate the Karismatic Dark Side?

I'll agree with Guy on the Sonos part.

I currently use Sonos with nDac and the output is just awesome. 

Only problem is no support for hires music. Anyway those are limited in availability today. I tried out some using USB with the nDac. worked fine.

Other problem is inconvenience in ripping and cataloging the CD.

Regards,

Sourav

Agreed Gordon,

I have posted on another thread that the Userve/nDac/555PSU (the latter being most important) has  given me the biggest uprade I can recall. At  times it feels like a speaker upgrade, even more bass through the SL2's .

Gerry

Gordon, did you have iTunes set up with the error correction enabled and were you using good quality CDs? With the exception of badly damaged discs, iTunes gets it right. I'm convinced Naim would also get it right, but I've not had the opportunity to verify this. What tools are you using? It may be the case that the Naim ripping method does a better job of interpolating the correct bits on damaged discs, so if you were using damaged discs then this could affect your results. 

XLD with cdparanoia is a top class CD ripper; however I've yet to find a disc in my collection that XLD ripped better than iTunes with error correction enabled. XLD incorporates AccurateRip verification so if it is wrong then so is the AccurateRip database, which most would concede is unlikely. I did a bit compare of some of my iTunes rips with XLD and they were the same regards media content. So iTunes matches an AccurateRip verified rip.      

Of course, Tony should go to a dealer and listen for himself. It should be easy enough to get the nServe to render rips from iTunes and rips of the same CDs it has created itself. The HDX could do this too. Then you could do a simple A-B comparison and play spot the difference. A good way would be to have a Naim ripped file and iTunes ripped file from the same CD on a USB stick and play both through the Naim DAC/555PS. 

Tony if you can hear one is better than the other then that's good enough. I cannot hear this and I have heard files ripped on both the HDX and nServe. There are other forum members who hear no difference either. I would not deny the nServe is a fine source component, but I do not attribute this to witchcraft, but good solid engineering and care and attention paid to jitter reduction and its rendering capability. 

However, I sought to help rather than enter a confrontation so my advice remains to audition. Gordon disagrees with me, which is his right; I'd be interested if you do the comparison on which view you take on this. I cannot agree that two identical bitstreams sound different depending on how they were created, but perhaps I've read to many physics and computer science books for my own good.

All the best, Guy 

Hi Gordon -

There was a recent thread where several technically-inclined folks compared the PCM data in Naim WAV rips to the PCM data in EAC WAV rips, and they were, in fact, bit-for-bit, the same.

One of the guys also noticed that Naim utilized "extended" data in the WAV header/trailer sections, but to what end, nobody knows.   It was speculated that this could very well provide alignment information to a Naim network player, and perhaps be an explanation why Naim rips sound better on Naim players.   But that does not change the proven fact that the actual PCM data in the two rips was the same.

Hook

PS - Just noticed that Guy and I use the same milliner! 

Thank you for you responses so far.

I will definitely have a listen to the nServe before making any firm decisions. I must say I like the idea of "the glory of the Naim ripping solution" - "an amazingly painless process" as referenced by Mr Underhill. I look forward to some time back at the dealer shortly where I will compare Gordon's findings with my own impressions and try out Guy's test! 

PS Jan Erik  - Good suggestion re speakers. 

Regards

Tony. 

Says who? Are you a dealer with a vested interest? If so mark yourself as such and not as a plain member. Seems to me you are!!

Many people here have found there to be no differences or notable differences between bit perfect rips. Who are you to claim your views to be true or categorise those of others as "absolute bollocks". It is these kind of useless contributions that the forum can do without.

Well said totemphile.

Yep Totemphile,

Chap name Gorden McGlade appears to be associated with Hometech in Spain, Naim distributer - same man?

M

We are the distributor for Spain and Portugal and were registered as trade member, Naim control that not us, and we do not hide behind any nicknames unlike many others who seem not to use their own names, like yourself I amy add.

The statement

a rip is a rip. 010101110 ripped by iTunes is the same as 010101110 ripped by anything else

is a completely unqualified equivocation!!!!!!

That is FACT coming from professionals in this business, including Naim Audio Ltd,  NOT hobbyist who are offering their opinions of what they may or may not believe. That is NOT my view BUT is in fact true1

Now that kind of useless, unknowledgeable contributions the forum can certainly do without.

If anyone has any doubt about this then feel free to contact Naim directly and they will get a very clear and accurate response on the matter.

Gordon

You are riding on a pretty high horse Gordon and as the saying goes arrogance comes before a mighty fall. But that shall not be my concern. All I felt when reading your comments was that a bit more modesty would do you some good, especially since you represent Naim. You may argue what you argue and knowing what pays your bills your position is no surprise. The reality is though that quite a few people here with very good systems, even all 500 systems, have found there to be no differences or little differences at best between bit perfect rips, if I am not mistaken. Others have found WAV files to sound somewhat better but even so it was marginal to some while more pronounced to others. The debate continues. In any case it seemed to have been much more a question of what renderer is playing the file and even there some found that through the nDAC the various Naim units sounded pretty much the same, if not exactly the same, when playing a bit perfect file of a NAS. So for you to come out smashing other people's experiences to pieces and belittle them as "absolute bollocks" is just plain arrogant. Above all it shows you have few manners.

Daniel

Very strong words, Gordon. Nothing people are keen to read in this forum.

Nice one

Above the fray the original poster has not only moved on but is in the process of doing exactly the right thing; going and listening. 

Brilliant.  The one with them at the bar is perfect.  He walks out, they keep arguing.   Funny as h*%@!

Naim is very clear in their statements on bit-perfect rips. They do say that accurate ripping is possible with PC. I'm not going to be surprised to know that Naim actually has learnt the bit-perfect rip solutions from what had been developed on PC platform. Of course, one has to take care of the CD-drive is compliant with some specs and the software is OK (like EAC) and the settings are OK (they are numerous btw). I think Naim is quite honest on this part -- they only say they did the job for us and offer the purpose-built solution which is optimized for bit-perfect rip and simplified on this -- like HDX or US. But when I hear the claims like "Naim rip may be bit-equivalent to EAC rip but still sounds better" it just does not sum up in my mind.

It does not bother me much -- as I still enjoy the Naim system with EAC rips (verified through Accurate Rip). But as soon as I don't come across two bit-equivalent rips (with the same replay gain -- which can be a source of confusion) to sound different through my nDAC I shall continue my blind belief that those who claim the opposite are missing something in their files/setups or merely broadcasting the mistakes from the others.

I also think that some Naim Trade Members are exemplar of careful wording and tolerance and some others are a bit overreacting to the customers views 

Originally Posted by Gordon McGlade:

We are the distributor for Spain and Portugal and were registered as trade member, Naim control that not us, ...

1. you may not control how your logon is presented but your post was just rude.

2. As stated previously, as a person who represents a company that many of us have spent a large amount of money on you do nothing to foster good will, let alone understanding.

and we do not hide behind any nicknames unlike many others who seem not to use their own names

1. It is in your INTEREST not to have a nickname - or was.

2. This is just the way these bulletin boards work - and is part of the fun.

a rip is a rip. 010101110 ripped by iTunes is the same as 010101110 ripped by anything else

is a completely unqualified equivocation!!!!!!

1. How do you know?

2. There have been some very detailed explainations of what constitutes a WAV file, and the differences between a NAIM rip and others.

3. What would you consider 'qualified'? Someone who works in the HiFi industry?

4. People here are more than intelligent enough to dig out the original RFC and forensically examine the contents of a file.

....professionals in this business, including Naim Audio Ltd,  NOT hobbyist ...

Hobbyists have included people such as Darwin. Your use of terms is very rhetorical and loose.

Bottom Line:

Your tone is poor, as is your ill-tempered defence. Frankly I think that you should be barred from this forum, and further insulting Naim's paying customers.

Yours Sincerely,

Mr Underhill

It's interesting when sales people forget who pays their salary and therefore their mortgages & bills - customers.

I work in a sales environment and see these issues regularly

Why people get so upset when somebody in the trade voices their views based on their experience beats me.

The point about "insulting paying customers"  and being "banned from the forum" is not going far enough, he'll be forgetting to doff his cap next....the bounder should be shot!!! 

Jonn,

Maybe I got I head of steam up - but ....

I have NO objection to anybody stating their opinion, but denigrating someone who states a reasonable point of view, and just being plain rude, is not justifiable behaviour; especially when you then find out that they are a part of the business; and so, in my opinion, should be seen to set an example.

M