NDX, nServe, nDAC dilemma

I would expect anyone representing any vendor to act professionally.

I wonder if "absolute bollocks" a sentiment a vendor would want their channel to portray?

Yes Sir, we'll oblige!! How could people have been so silly to go off and think for themselves? You lot should have consulted the highest authority in the land straight away and not bothered with those time wasting tests! Can you please all shut up and start buying some more equipment please. Thank you very much!

Errm... last time I checked this was a free spirited forum that encourages the exchange and sharing of personal experiences to support one another in making the right decisions... 

Gordon is Gordon, I'm sure he's a nice person.

I wouldn't want to see him excluded from the forum. 

Personal views will not change my mind on this issue I'm afraid because I see what I see and I hear what I hear. What I see is two bit identical files as being the same and can hear no difference between them. That somebody else may hear and see difference between to entities that are identical is entirely their prerogative. 

I continue to believe 1101 = 1101, as to me it is saying 13 = 13. 

I'm puzzled how anybody can say the is not the case. 

To say 13 ≠ 13 (if the first of 13s was calculated in one way and the second in another way) is a fact is inconsistent with mathematics as I understand it. 

Consequently, I'm completely happy with my rips of CDs. If at a future date I do buy a Naim streamer or use my UQ as a streamer then I see no reason to re-rip my CDs to produce identical files in another way, metadata excepted. 

For what it is worth, when I spoke to Naim they did not claim that two identical rips would sound different; Naim just asserted very sensibly that the ripping engine they designed makes extremely accurate rips which I'm sure it does. Naim were also extremely polite. 

Playing a file through the US/nDAC/555PS does indeed sound superb, but I continue to assert that if the music content of two files is identical then the rendering engine should not care how these were created. All I'm suggesting is playing a few songs ripped by iTunes with error correction and the same songs ripped by Naim through the US/nDAC/555PS and allowing the potential buyer see if he/she can tell the difference. 

Tony is going to try this and I hope he'll let us know the outcome. If his dealer is like mine then he will simply set up the demo and let Tony decide for himself which he prefers and not try to influence. 

All the best, Guy

Just wondering..... does "absolute bollocks" mean something else over there?  Seems pretty weak to me.... nothing to get your panties in a bunch about.  Even if it does, who cares what Gordo has to say, or how he says it.  Thick skin folks, we are all in one big family here.

And he is right in a strange way.... iTunes rips DO NOT match a "proper" rip EVERYTIME.  Pre-gap data BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!

I challenge Naim or any of their distributors to make available online a copy of a UnitiServe rip - say of a Naim cd - so that their potential customers can measure for themselves whether it has the same or different audio data than that which can be ripped using other means, and whether it sounds different or not.

Can't say for Naim or distributors but I have my own experience. Sometime ago I had US on a home demo and I ripped a CD with US and run it into nDAC. The same CD was previously ripped with EAC and run from Logitech Transporter into nDAC.  Switching between the digital inputs did not reveal any audible difference between two setups -- neither short or long terms. The same CD played with HK DVD 37 into optical input of nDAC (linked by Analysis Plus optical cord) was audibly different (brighter and edgy) than both US/TP.

Hi Patrik

XLD can sort out the pre-gap, but the SQ was unaffected, as was the musical content of the file when I tried this. I could have use XLD to rip all my files, but as I couldn't see or hear any difference in the music, I thought who cares.

My assertion is that Naim makes great rips, but then so do other software packages and on most good quality CDs, iTunes is just as good. I have found a few CDs that needed XLD, but for the most part iTunes is fine.

I'd also suggest EAC and dBPowerAmp produce first class rips too. 

There are plenty of great reasons to recommend an all Naim set-up, so it is not helpful for a poster to rant over one that makes little sense (Peter Belt immediately comes to mind), but you're right in saying I don't really care what somebody says about two identical things not being the same. Especially, as Naim themselves claim no such thing.

Still nothing to get one mixing the saltpetre, sulphur and carbon over; such methods rarely work and only lead to folks being thrown on a bonfire. 

All the best, Guy 

Actually Guy, Naim themselves DO claim that their rips are superior.

Paul Stephenson says, on this thread: https://forums.naimaudio.com/di...ent/3960068604537349 that

In the thread entitled:

Naim Rips -vs- Ruby Ripper Alias WAV -vs Flac!

forum member Jack stated:

"...The first 43 bytes of the EAC file and the first 465 bytes of the Naim file are not consistent, I guess this is he difference between canonical and extended format of WAV. However, the rest of the data (i.e. from the relevant offset) is exactly same. Well almost.....there appears to be an extra 113 bytes at the end of the EAC file that isn't on the Naim file..."

This is not the first time on this forum where a "hobbyist" made the effort to do a bit-for-bit comparison of a Naim and a non-Naim rip.   In each instance, the PCM data was the same.  So until someone offers up some new evidence to the contrary, I don't see where there is room for debate.

In theory, I guess it is possible that a Naim player to use this extra header and trailer information for some good purpose on playback.  It would be interesting to hear someone from Naim comment on this (but I am not holding my breath).

Hook

I have done my own 6 way comparison of the best rip I can make on a PC (DBPoweramp) with a HDX rip

1. Using itunes to replay (apple TV into dac)

2. Using USB stick into Dac

3. Using NDX into dac

To my ears each time the HDX rip beats the pants of the PC rip. I was not expecting this conclusion but all four ears in our household agree and with no difficulty.There is simply more and better music in the HDX rip.

I am sure someone can do a better rip than I can on a PC but pragmatically I can't. With regret I concluded that Naim rips are for me, superior.

Interesting - does DBPoweramp use the AccurateRip database to verify the rip is correct (if we assume AccurateRip is correct which seems reasonable). If your Naim rip sounds different then perhaps it is different from AccurateRip in its content and it may as a result be less accurate, but sound better. It can't be something in the extra data stored in the header as iTunes wouldn't understand how to use it. I'm assuming your original CD was in good condition, of course, as that would make a difference. as I suspect some error correction is better than others, but if checks out against  AccurateRip then it's not that either.  

I'm surprised by your results, but not doubting them. 

It just reinforces that everyone should listen for themselves and opt for the solution that suits them best. 

I compared iTunes, XLD and US rips and honestly couldn't hear any difference using your method 2. I did the iTunes and XLD rips and somebody else sent me a US rip. The same CD was used - 10CC's Sheet Music.  

Of course using a device like the HDX will assure you of an excellent rip without the need to bother configuring and optimising settings on a piece of software.

All the best, Guy  

It possibly means that your PC+SW setup is not optimized for bit-perfect rip.

Sometimes CD drive is not compliant, sometimes software has a strange default setting.

BTW -- did you check up the PC rip against Accurate Rip?

Can you post an excerpt from a dbpoweramp rip report?

There is a very helpful guide on www.computeraudiophile.com on how to set up dBpoweramp correctly for perfect CD rips.

A rip is a straightforward data transfer; like any other data transfer it is either right or wrong, correct or incorrect. 

Thats what I would have thought!

If a computer drive does not rip/read correctly a program won't work. End of?

If the Naim rip is different sounding, surely it has introduced errors. If it were possible [not a clue] it would be interesting is to use a Naim rip/read to load a software program. Would it work? I guess it is entirely possible that what happens to the data on its way to the DAC in replay is of far more significance/risk of variability. Maybe thats why I don't get on with computer streaming to DACs in general but do like hifi streaming components [ie NDX, UQ but not HDX where there is a Naim rip involved]

J

I believe the many hundreds of rips I have made using dBpoweramp to be correct. I may be wrong, and so may dBpoweramp.

Paul Stephenson, on the other hand, claims that UnitiServe rips are better and will usually sound better.

So, he is claiming that dBpoweramp rips are wrong. Which is a big claim. Alternatively an NDX is incapable of correctly playing non-Naim rips. Which is a big defect.

Either way, I can't see why I should be interested in an NDX anymore. Either I have to buy a UnitiServe and spend countless weeks re-ripping cds, or put up with (in Stephensons opinion) sub-standard rips.

I can't help contrasting this approach with Linn's.

Hey,

I would be very interested in hearing of someone with a Linn machine has tried putting their best PC rip through and a comparative one done by Naim on the same Linn system.

If there is such a member in NYC, I am game.

Cheers

No–imaging the disc is itself (potentially?) a straightforward data transfer (though interleaved data)–but a disc rip into WAV files is not, as it's not a 1:1 reversible mapping (PQ subcode is dropped). There is no correctness or incorrectness here, as it is dependent upon the sub-mapping of PCM data into (interleaved) disc data, which is lossy.

That is–you cannot re-generate a Compact Disc from the contents of a (ripped) 16-bit WAV file alone–nor a cue sheet, unless it retains ALL PQ subcode (exactly half the size of the audio data: 16 bits audio + 8 bits PQ).

Red Book CD-DA and Yellow Book CD-ROM use different degrees of error-correction schemes–you cannot make assumptions about one based on the other.

Go do the dem and stop "challenging" or demanding. It's really simple and not earth-shattering. Life does go on.

Email me a copy of a UnitiServe rip and I'll gladly do the dem. You might also email the same to dBpoweramp so they can determine whether there is any basis for your attack on their product and competence.

Why don't you rise to the challenge, instead of bodyswerve it?

Why would I be interested in a dem of a product that according to you can't play my rips properly?

Likesmusic, I've ripped my entire CD collection using dBpoweramp and EAC (which are basically the same ripping engine). It took me the best part of 3 months, so I don't really want to do it again. I'm happy with the quality of my rips, I am also confident that any of the Naim streamers that I choose to listen to them played back on will play them very well.

However, I will do a dem to see whether a product from Naim or one of their competitors replays my rips to the best of my satisfaction. Do I care whether Naim could do a better job of ripping my CD's in the first place? Or do I care whether their products can play back my existing rips better than anyone else's? I for one plan to do the dem, I don't understand why you believe that they will not play them "properly". If hypothetically the Naim players can get even more from a Naim rip then more power to the Naim elbow as far as I'm concerned.

It is not me that believes that. David Dever has said that dBpoweramp rips sound worse than UnitiServe rips because of (as yet unspecificed) flaws in the headers. So in his opinion the audio data, which we are agreed is the same as a Unitiserve rip, does not get played back properly.  If it did get played back properly, the rips would sound the same.