What 3rd Party Cables Do You Use With Your NAIM?

Max - although cables are a "passive component" - once the current starts flowing they become very active, in the sense that with more conventional cable architectures (i.e. containing parallel conductors) the individual internal conductors interact with each other and generate internal noise.

BTW that goes for all cables - power and speaker included

That noise feeds back into the component and causes distortions, especially in the neutral side of the circuit - that is just enough to affect the components clarity and imaging

Most cable manufactures have focussed on metal purity and metals like silver or other complex alloy conductors to elevate cable performance, when in fact it is cable architecture that reaps the most significant benefits.

The reason why these architectures are seldom used is simple - cost!

- the spiral architectures are at present hand wound

- I have seen one helix cable that was machine made - but most are hand made

 I have also tried a few RCA's and Mains connectors and found some that are what I deem as "cost effective" - and guess what - None of them are Furutech or WBT :-)

If your curiosity gets the better of you - let me know - there's lots more to this

BTW - like you - my speaker cables also lie on the floor - even I have my limits :-)

Mick - that's one view, but without challenging "the norm" there is never any progress

And why leave it up to one establishment - after all, that's why there are so many audio companies out there - I bet several of them employ ex-NAIM engineers who were unsatisfied with "internal direction" - after all - that's how NAIM started - a couple of guy's that had a very different approach to amplifier design!  

as for the "fiddling" - I see it as an integral part of this hobby (or obsession) - if you do not share that view I respect that - it's definitely not for everybody

I'm just trying to seek out like minded individuals to discuss alternative products that work well with NAIM product.

Hi Williewonka,

I think you're quite right, cable architecture is most significant.

And yet, three cables with similar geometry - the Van Den Hul Clearwater, the TelluriumQ Black and the NAC A5 - have different sounds, so I assume that the stuff they're made of also counts.

I don't know enough of this, and I suspect that in general the art of designing gear being able to predict a certain sound is at its dawn; I think that the sonic behaviour of a cable, for instance, cannot be really anticipated, and an amount of trial and error adjustments is still necessary.

That said, I do not use the stock mains cords I find in the boxes, because I find it hard to believe that cables with pressure-printed plugs and made of PVC - one of the lousiest electrical, thermal and mechanic insulators - can be better than a carefully built one, with better plugs and better cable; and I believe that silicone is a better insulator than PVC. In this case, perhaps, my rational conviction of the superiority of silicone over PVC makes me 'hear' that it sounds, and sounds better than the PVC one, even if that is not absolutely true; and yet, what parameters do we have to decide which power cord is better?

So, in the end - and limiting to speaker cables - architecture, geometry, metal of the conductor, matter of the inner and the outer sheath, length, section of the conductor, to name just what comes to my mind, all contribute to a given 'performance', but for this performance - differently to what happens with electronics, whose linearity can be observed and, to an extent, measured - there is no parameter that helps to verify an objectively 'better' behaviour. So it's left to our ears.

Speaker cables, and cables in general, leave something open for us to experiment with; and once the few objective criteria - inductance and capacitance per mt, speaking of Naim - have been taken into consideration and respected, all the rest is part of the game, and I think there is not much more ground for objectivity.

Now please technical dept. correct me if you want, I am ready to learn.

Best

M

Ok, I only use Naim as a source and not amplification and use Nordost cables.

Nordost are an excellent cable company and maybe the best out there. they use cable technology unique to the brand. They offer complete looms in a tiered "family " that covers all price levels- from very good value budget, to $$$$tate of the art.  This covers any doubts when you want an upgrade as they hold their value well when you sell them on and get a higher level cable. They have covered pretty much all aspects of cable use - power cables, tone arm cables.digital , hdmi,headphone, figure 8 , usb. Speaker jumpers.They even do an electric guitar lead. They have a sub company Quantum" that offers mains blocks and filters. They also provide a few items that allow you to tweak your system with isolation cones and feet.

they generally have a very neutral sound. With very fast tracking of transients. The more higher up the grade of cable the more fill of bass and midrange harmonics and texture. I recommend you look them up and get a better idea about their technology.

TOBYJUG - thanks for the update -  I am very familiar with Nordost - you are right, they are very good at all things cable, but can get a little expensive.

How did they improve the sound of your NAIM component?

As yet I have not had the opportunity to try them, but I do know where I can borrow some from - perhaps I'll give them a whirl and see how they compare to my own KLE Innovations cables.

Thanks

I use 100% Naim cables, except for the Nordost Jumpers on my Proac D40-R speakers, and a Chord Mini-DIN interconnect for the satellite radio and Meridian Explorer DAC.   My Naim dealer is several hundred miles away and it is a great benefit to be able to buy with confidence without an audition.

Max - although capacitance and inductance are paramount for many amps, the one thing that governs both of these factors is cable architecture. So using a different cable architecture, such as that offered by KLE Innovations gZero Speaker Cables, not only reduces the impact of both capacitance and inductance, it also lowers the noise floor to extremely low levels, resulting in

- a very neutral sound

- amazing clarity

- a deeper more controlled bass

- wider and better defined image

- finer details

Over the years I had tried the Van den Hul Clearwater and the CS-122 but after trying a couple of other brands, had settled on the Van Den Hul D352, which I thought was about as good s it could get. Then I tried the KLEI gZero2 and 6 models and could not believe the improvements they made to the performance of the NAIM 5i.

Regards...

From FAQ section:

High capacitance cables are to be avoided at all costs and may result in damage to your amplifier.

NACA5 specifications are as follows:

Capacitance:         16pF per metre
Resistance:          9 milliohms per metre
Inductance:          1uH per metre

I am curious to see your 3rd party speaker cables' capacitance and inductance figures at the length you are using?

Can they supply the specs on the cables?

Hmmm - I do keep asking them for this information, but they are very tight-lipped

However, I would encourage you to contact KLEInnovations@clubtelco.com; and ask them this very question - if they see a demand for this information they may just post it on their web site - they respond quickly to enquiries :-)

Before trying the gZero2's on my NAIM, I asked them the same question and they assured me oscillation would never be an issue using them.

So far, both the gZero2 and the gZero6 have never presented any issues on my NAIM 5i in the time I have used them, i.e. over a year and the amp is powered on 24/7 - in fact, they perform extremely well,  much better than any other cable I have tried.

A friend who has two very expensive solid state amps that were both driven into oscillation by a pair of Cardas speaker cables  (and as a result blew several components)  - has also tried the gZero2's and they behaved very nicely and sounded excellent.

Not really the answer you were looking for, but I think it is an indication that they are well suited to amps that have a tendency to oscillate with the wrong speaker cables. 

Also - when I first purchased my NAIM I was using Van den Hul D-352 - which has higher capacitance values than the NACA5 - so I emailed NAIM.

Their response stated, that although the D-352 does have a higher capacitance than the NACA5, it would not present any problems when used with the 5i. This proved to be the case - since I used them without incident for over 3 years

This leads me to believe that although lower capacitance is better for NAIM amps - there is some "wiggle room" in their design

Based on their stellar performance I would  assume that the spec's of the gZero line of speaker cables fall somewhere between the NACA5 and the D-352.

If KLEI does get back to me I'll post the specs here

Cheers

Very interesting, thanks.

Max

What if anything, do people think about the Witch Hat N2 cables? Are they in the same league as the Tellurium Q black? They seem to be very reasonably priced.

Max - to elaborate - the most startling improvement the gZero2 cables had over the D-352's was the depth of the bass response - it went so much deeper than it had before, with much more control and texture. and the gZero6 cables went even deeper

The dynamic performance was the next most noticeable attribute, with a much crisper presentation across the board.

After listening for some while, what becomes more noticeable is the overall clarity and the spacious feel of the image. Orchestral pieces are just huge and the image seems to come forward and envelope the listener and individual instruments are easily distinguished, but in their own space.

My all time favourite pieces are pipe organ tracks - they literally shake the room with a bass component that dives into the basement and control and a clarity that simply amazes

What the gZero cables do -  is allow your amp to take the speakers by the scruff of the neck and shake them into submission!

I've loved the 5i from the moment I purchased it - but with these cables - you'll have to pry it out of my cold dead hands - my wife jokes she'll bury me with my system - although I'm not too sure she's joking LOL!

So I've just seen this in the FAQ's...

NACA5 specifications are as follows:

Capacitance:         16pF per metre
Resistance:          9 milliohms per metre
Inductance:          1uH per metre

Minimum length:     3.5 metres per channel
Maximum length:    20 metres per channel (note that longer lengths can be used up to around 25 m but then some small signal loss must be expected)

This would mean that based on a range of cable length 3.5-20 meters -  NAIM amps amp can easily accommodate values in the range of...

Capacitance:         56pF to 320pf per cable
Resistance:         31.5 milliohms to 180 milliohms per cable
Inductance:          3.5uH to 20 uH per cable

In my current listening space my cables are in the 3.5 metre range

- so this affords me fair degree of latitude in that...

- I can actually use cables up to "91pF per metre"  without and issue

Just thinking out loud :-)

Cheers

TQ Black speaker cables and Chord Chrysalis interconnects...

More thinking out loud

Naim are looking for Inductance (L) loading with the speaker cable, not capacitance (C)

- with this method the less C the better as the L load is counteracting amp output stage instability caused by capacitive reactance of the speaker & the cable C x length.  

Assuming the Naim standard is reflected with NACA5 which has 1uH/m  & the min of 3.5m means a minimum L load requirement of 3.5uH.   

As a general rule,  high L cables are normally low C & the reverse for low L cables that tend to have high C.

91pF/m is not exactly high C,  but it would tend to have a low'ish L & "could" result in your 3.5m cable with an L of less than 1uH.

However, & not thinking out loud - with your Van den Hul D-352 I note they have a C of 32pF/m & although L is not published its probably around 0.7uH/m & perfectly OK - especially with a Nait 5i.  

More thinking out loud Part II:

I've read someone wanted to use Harmonic Technology speaker cables with a Naim amp.

Here is the published specs from the manufacture's site:

* Harmonic Technology Pro 11 Plus LSC 
- TECHNICAL DATA -

Capacitance Per Foot = 29 pf 
Inductance Per Foot = 0.17 uh 
Resistance Per Foot = 0.0016 Ohm*

Suppose he used a 8ft lead, a typical speaker cables length in the US.

In order to keep the Naim amp stable, he would have needed 18.5' run of the HT to keep the same level of inductance. ( according to the factory,NACA5 would have the 3.15 uH inductance @ 3.5 m to protect the amp and only 56pF capacitance to upset it.)

Furthermore the HT cables was throwing 537 pF capacitance. ( 10x more than it should be )

Naim amp would be happiest with 5 m (= 16.5') NACA5, providing 4.5 uH inductance while confronting it with only 80 pF capacitance.

In reality, this formula isn't set in stone, ( speakers/loudness matters, also ) so does not necessarily mean the amps going bust, however, I won't be taking chances with my amps, for sure.

Plus I'd rather give my amps an ideal condition to perform its potentially fully rather than making their life difficult.

I'v got bit by cable bug over 10 years ago so I know how it is to find out they do make quite a lot of difference.

Have fun.

Kuma - I wish all companies followed NAIM's approach and provided Technical Data that basically provides a very good indication as to what the amp can tolerate.

It would make life soooo much easier.

Unfortunately they don't, so selecting a good third party cable can be a bit of a crap-shoot - as a friend of mine found out - in his case there was no indication on the manufacturers web site that oscillation could even be an issue with their amps if high capacitance speaker cables were used. 

However, simply publishing cable Technical Data per meter ( or ft )  can be also be a bit misleading, but I think now that by citing various examples, such as those we have both posted, i.e. covering capacitance and inductance issues, will provide the more curious members some additional "enlightenment" when it comes to selecting third party speaker cables if they choose to do so.

Thanks for the post :-)