Streaming update question

Posted by: John132 on 10 July 2015

New software update has just been released for the SU and others. My PC is in a different room and streams wirelessly. The video suggest they have to be cable connected for the update but can it be streamed? The video doesn't say it can but then doesn't actually say it can't be either. Disconnecting and lugging the SU to the PC is really not a tempting prospect. 

 

Any thoughts? Surely Naim must have thought of this or am I missing something?

Posted on: 14 July 2015 by Phil Harris
Originally Posted by sls:
Originally Posted by Phil Harris:
Hi,

 

You can update to 4.3 but you won't get Spotify Connect support on that.

 

Best Regards

 

Phil Harris

Phil, I'll ask a specific question. My NDX after updating the firmware to version 4.3 will be able to play DSD 64 files ? The other possibilities do not interest me.

 

Hi,

 

No - it won't support DSD64 ... you need a 24/192 unit for that.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

Posted on: 14 July 2015 by The Buster
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:

I've updated my firmware this morning. Connect the laptop to the SU with USB lead, plug it into the mains, download the software wirelessly to the laptop, click a few times, make a coffee, and 10 minutes later it's all done. 

 

Is it really that hard?

Personally, I find the updates a piece of cake, however that's not really the issue here.

 

Premium product(s). Premium price tag. Sub-standard, god-awful Tablet/Smartphone App, and the most archaic software update mechanism known to man. If there is a genuine hardware limitation as to why the software updates have to be done as they are, please somebody set me straight. I've heard nothing but conjecture up to now.

 

To give a bit of context, we're in a day and age where an Android phone is capable of updating it's entire Operating System over a Cellular network without any problems.  As per my previous post, my Sonos Connect also is capable of self-updating over the internet.

 

The Naim streamers are capable of pulling HD Radio feeds from the internet, but not capable of downloading an update file from an IP address, and installing/executing it? Really?

 

Naim are not just a HiFi company anymore, they are also a software company, or are in the market of producing software, and to my mind, the software side overall is sadly languishing.

 

Posted on: 14 July 2015 by sls

Phil, understood, thank you very much!

Posted on: 14 July 2015 by Phil Harris
Originally Posted by The Buster:
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:

I've updated my firmware this morning. Connect the laptop to the SU with USB lead, plug it into the mains, download the software wirelessly to the laptop, click a few times, make a coffee, and 10 minutes later it's all done. 

 

Is it really that hard?

Personally, I find the updates a piece of cake, however that's not really the issue here.

 

Premium product(s). Premium price tag. Sub-standard, god-awful Tablet/Smartphone App, and the most archaic software update mechanism known to man. If there is a genuine hardware limitation as to why the software updates have to be done as they are, please somebody set me straight. I've heard nothing but conjecture up to now.

 

To give a bit of context, we're in a day and age where an Android phone is capable of updating it's entire Operating System over a Cellular network without any problems.  As per my previous post, my Sonos Connect also is capable of self-updating over the internet.

 

The Naim streamers are capable of pulling HD Radio feeds from the internet, but not capable of downloading an update file from an IP address, and installing/executing it? Really?

 

Naim are not just a HiFi company anymore, they are also a software company, or are in the market of producing software, and to my mind, the software side overall is sadly languishing.

 

 

Hi,

 

Actually I have explained several times on here why the software update on the current streamers is the way that it is but generally when I do then I'm told that I'm talking rubbish.

 

However, the streamers have been designed (for many reasons) so that the 'streaming' hardware (which handles Ethernet / WiFi / USB etc) is isolated from the analogue / switching / control hardware.

 

The USB / RS232 hookup updates the analogue / switching / control hardware and the Ethernet hookup updates the streaming hardware.

 

It would be technically possible for us to 'over the air' update the streaming hardware but not the analogue / switching / control hardware and both need to be updated in parallel - hence the update process is as it is.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

 

 

Posted on: 14 July 2015 by King Size

Phil, 

 

Assuming I have the current spec NDX upgraded to 4.3 firmware being served files via a Uniti-Serve SSD (which I believe is not DSD compatible), will I or will I not be able to playback DSD audio files?

 

Posted on: 14 July 2015 by The Buster
Originally Posted by Phil Harris:
Originally Posted by The Buster:
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:

I've updated my firmware this morning. Connect the laptop to the SU with USB lead, plug it into the mains, download the software wirelessly to the laptop, click a few times, make a coffee, and 10 minutes later it's all done. 

 

Is it really that hard?

Personally, I find the updates a piece of cake, however that's not really the issue here.

 

Premium product(s). Premium price tag. Sub-standard, god-awful Tablet/Smartphone App, and the most archaic software update mechanism known to man. If there is a genuine hardware limitation as to why the software updates have to be done as they are, please somebody set me straight. I've heard nothing but conjecture up to now.

 

To give a bit of context, we're in a day and age where an Android phone is capable of updating it's entire Operating System over a Cellular network without any problems.  As per my previous post, my Sonos Connect also is capable of self-updating over the internet.

 

The Naim streamers are capable of pulling HD Radio feeds from the internet, but not capable of downloading an update file from an IP address, and installing/executing it? Really?

 

Naim are not just a HiFi company anymore, they are also a software company, or are in the market of producing software, and to my mind, the software side overall is sadly languishing.

 

 

Hi,

 

Actually I have explained several times on here why the software update on the current streamers is the way that it is but generally when I do then I'm told that I'm talking rubbish.

 

However, the streamers have been designed (for many reasons) so that the 'streaming' hardware (which handles Ethernet / WiFi / USB etc) is isolated from the analogue / switching / control hardware.

 

The USB / RS232 hookup updates the analogue / switching / control hardware and the Ethernet hookup updates the streaming hardware.

 

It would be technically possible for us to 'over the air' update the streaming hardware but not the analogue / switching / control hardware and both need to be updated in parallel - hence the update process is as it is.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

 

 

Hi Phil, 

 

Many thanks for the explanation, much appreciated, and excuse my poor forum search efforts.

 

 

 

Posted on: 14 July 2015 by Phil Harris
Originally Posted by King Size:

Phil, 

 

Assuming I have the current spec NDX upgraded to 4.3 firmware being served files via a Uniti-Serve SSD (which I believe is not DSD compatible), will I or will I not be able to playback DSD audio files?

 

 

Yes - you will be able to play DSD files from USB sticks but not from the UnitiServe via UPnP as the UnitiServe does not support DSD at this time.

 

Phil

Posted on: 14 July 2015 by james n
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:

I've updated my firmware this morning. Connect the laptop to the SU with USB lead, plug it into the mains, download the software wirelessly to the laptop, click a few times, make a coffee, and 10 minutes later it's all done. 

 

Is it really that hard?

I agree - It's not hard, but it's a faff. Pure and simple.

Posted on: 14 July 2015 by King Size
Originally Posted by Phil Harris:
Originally Posted by King Size:

Phil, 

 

Assuming I have the current spec NDX upgraded to 4.3 firmware being served files via a Uniti-Serve SSD (which I believe is not DSD compatible), will I or will I not be able to playback DSD audio files?

 

 

Yes - you will be able to play DSD files from USB sticks but not from the UnitiServe via UPnP as the UnitiServe does not support DSD at this time.

 

Phil

That is not good news at all.  I certainly didn't buy an NDX to have to faff about with USB sticks and now have  effectively been penalised by opting for an all-Naim solution and would have been better off just getting a NAS and running something like MinimServer?  The more I understand the UnitiServe's limitations the more I think it was a a mistake for me to go down this route in the first place  

Posted on: 15 July 2015 by Phil Harris
Originally Posted by AllenB:
 
So it is a design faux pas? There is no reason why an over the air update should not be able to be passed from the streaming boards (ethernet / USB) to the firmware. After all, the streamed music gets passed through, why not a piddly little firmware update?

 

Please tell us the real reason for this. A design decision?

 

 

 

Absolutely - it was a design decision ... the digitally noisy streaming hardware that handles USB, WiFi and Ethernet are isolated as far as possible from the control / DAC / analogue hardware so as to maximise audio quality so the control / DAC / analogue hardware are updated separately from the streaming hardware.

 

With the Uniti / ND / NAC-N series products we were able to obtain significant performance gains by separating out the streaming hardware (as well as making the product upgradable - if we had integrated everything on one board then customers with 24/96 units would not be able to upgrade to latest spec.

 

We believe that sound quality and having a product that can be kept up to date for reasonable cost are reasonable design goals...

 

 

Originally Posted by AllenB:
  

It's changed on the Muso. Why is that?

 

 

The Mu-so is a very different design for a very different market to the Uniti / ND and NAC-N series products as I'm sure you are aware... the Mu-so has *MANY* different design points to the Uniti and ND series products and the different design decisions made are taken as appropriate for the product.

 

Phil

Posted on: 15 July 2015 by Phil Harris
Originally Posted by AllenB:

I hope Trevor sorts this all out.

 

Hi,

 

Trevor has been our R&D director for many years and is more than aware of how the products work as he has been intrinsically linked with their development and implementation.

 

Best

 

Phil

Posted on: 15 July 2015 by Stevesky

Dear Allen,

 

Firstly thank-you for your comments and feedback. In the fast moving world of technology we recognise that it can be frustrating that the latest features or UI concepts on the latest smart-phone or computer is not reflected on a piece of Hifi. I would like to explain the history and the trade-offs we have to make in an industry where products are expected to last a very long time but also need to have all the best features of the current day included as well.  

 

Upgrade process  

Back in 2007 we started designing our first 'all in one' streamer - this was to become the Uniti. This was a multi-processor design with a state of the art 32bit ARM MCU and a hybrid IC based streaming core. At the time the streaming core could not hold the firmware image so we had our hand forced that a USB/UART cable would be needed to upgrade the product. This upgrade logic has to go in the 'trusted' bootloader which by design cannot be upgraded or accidentally damaged (if all else fails the bootloader will always allow a failed reprog to start again).     

 

The Uniti was a great success and it introduced a whole new product category into the HiFi world. Naturally over the years the platform evolved with improvement in many areas, sound quality remaining key, but one dilemma was reprogramming. During this development cycle we believed that it was better that all products worked the same, based on that the user may do 2 firmware upgrades per year and doing dedicated upgraders for PC & MAC helped smooth things over.   

 

On Mu-So we had the opportunity to re-look at this area and we have done full upgrade via the web, which updates all processors in the unit automatically, we like this of course, it brings benefits all around.

 

 

User Interface and Apps

We know that we will never please everyone on user interface design, but we invest very heavily in this and continue to do so as it's a very important area of the system. A key area where we will invest and evolve. 

 

- In 2014 we introduced a native Java Android app for the Uniti and Mu-so platform. We saw 64bit phones coming and ensured the UPnP stack would use the full capabilities of latest gen tech. 

- Same year we had the nStream iOS app redesigned with the help of a top London UI design consultancy company.  

- The apps are under continuous development and refinement - we have a new beta variant running at this very moment. 

 

Although we can't implement all suggestions, we will always consider them and if they technically and financially make sense then we often add them in while we are working in that area. Please feel free to email us via our helpdesk (mark it for R&D) and we will consider all points raised. 

 

 

Feature consistency across the range and new features ethos

When designing a high tech product you are never too sure what is around the corner for expected features. In some industries the tech may have a life of two years before it becomes landfill and hence the easy way to implement latest features is tell everyone to buy a new product!   At Naim we respect that Hifi is an expensive and long investment so we try and keep them up to-date as much as we can. 

 

Some features are complex to retro-fit in and DSD was one of them. The Naim streamer range was designed for optimal PCM based playback, so to support DSD as an upgrade was not trivial at all. Because we spec our products to have quite a lot of spare processing capability we found that we could add this feature to some, but not all. We decided that in this case it would be great for our existing customers to gain this feature even if we couldn't apply it consistently across the range, that is today - with our development plan we always look for improvements.

 

Are we turning into an audio software company?

No - we're a HiFi company, ultimately we make great sounding equipment. We have however invested a lot of time and money on software development and long term platform architecture so we can provide rich streaming solutions with that legendary Naim sound. We may never be able to compete with the Google's and Microsoft's of this world who have 10000's of software engineers, nor can we afford to flick from one technology trend to the next, but our aim is that when we implement a solution it's done properly and keep a sensible balance of audiophile and mass-market features.   

 

Forgive me that this answer is rather a long one, but felt it was best that we could explain the history of the product range and our attitude of making long term platforms, rather than short life tech products and the pros and cons of that. 

 

Best regards 

 

Steve Harris

Group Software Applications Director

Posted on: 20 July 2015 by Trevor Wilson

Hi everyone,

 

thank you for the feedback and considered response. Please note that we are (and have been) actively reviewing many of the constructive comments/suggestions towards the Naim app and future feature sets our customers would like (both from this forum and indeed other feedback mechanisms we maintain (registration cards for example)).

 

At Naim we take our customers seriously, and indeed we will continue to support our customers musical enjoyment. We are indeed fortunate to have so many customers that enjoy our products and are so passionate in their enjoyment that they take time to feedback us many constructive comments. However, to implement them all would make an impossible implementation, as many suggestions are in direct opposition to other suggestions, and thus as a business we review the suggestions and implement those that we believe add value to our core proposition and offering.

 

Regarding updating the point is noted.

 

Regarding other streaming services and methods, we are constantly reviewing options and market entrants with a view to appeal for the world wide customer base. As items come along and hit maturity for embedded delivery we will implement those add value to the listening experience.

 

Our customers can rest assured that Naim are developing features for new and existing customers on our streaming range just as we have done previously, this will not change. As to what these are, I choose to remain mute (pun intended) on this subject until such a time as the implementation is mature and provides real, tangible benefits to the enjoyment of our products.

 

Finally, a thank you to yourself and all those that care about Naim and our products – it’s a pleasure that you enjoy our products, it makes me very proud to be part of the Naim story.

 

Kindest regards

 

Trevor