Preferred uPNP player for Naim Streamers
Posted by: Paristhea on 08 August 2015
I have used Asset for almost a year now, until i started running into problems such as "can't play" messages, for my Greek music.
I spent many hours trying to figure out why this happens, without success.
Then i installed the J River Media Centre player on a trial, and to my surprise, all files play without any difficulty whatsoever.
Has anyone had experience with the "can't play" message from the Asset player? Any ideas what is causing it?
There again, is J River a better player than Asset if anyone has the knowledge?
Thanks
I am also using a asset and haven't had Amy issue. What i like Aboutaleb iT is THE possibikity to transcendente flac to wav on THE fly. THE can't plat messgae had been only once there - but it was related to a corrupt album, which was corrected after running it through so power amp converter.
so I just would suggest to stick to asset, unless you have other serious problems.
I think you mean UPnP media server; the Naim streamer is a UPnP renderer (the 'player' in common parlance).
Have you tried looking at the tagging? Anomalies like accented characters can cause problems in the hardware (and maybe J River is stripping out this information).
Another thing to do is to re-index the collection (but after checking the tagging!)
Asset has a very good reputation, and is known to work well with Naim renderers.
I have been using Asset for a few years. My experience has always been positive... It just does what I need - serves FLAC transcoded to WAV and DSD.
I have very little material with accented characters, so I suppose with non English character sets there could be issues.
I'd stick with Asset, but get a good metadata editor and see if you can work out which characters upset the playback.
I have been using Asset for a few years. My experience has always been positive... It just does what I need - serves FLAC transcoded to WAV and DSD.
I have very little material with accented characters, so I suppose with non English character sets there could be issues.
I'd stick with Asset, but get a good metadata editor and see if you can work out which characters upset the playback.
I use a Mac computer.
When the file is either downloaded, or ripped from a CD, or given by a friend, it usually works fine with Asset.
The problem seems to occur after i import the album into iTunes. I tend to convert most of my files into ALAC using XLD, or if it is a ripped CD, using iTunes. Classical music and high definition CD's i make them AIFF, iTunes recognises them.
With English titles i have never had a problem, but as i am a Greek person, i listen to a lot of Greek music too. Most of my Greek music is mp3 format, and absolutely all of it plays on iTunes. But not all of it will play on Asset. I tried changing the characters into capital case, or English, nothing. I do most of the tags editing via iTunes. You may ask me why i do this with iTunes, it is because of the mobile devices, where i synchronise music, mainly MP3 to hear in my travels (on the plane).
But recently i noticed that music downloaded as mp3 will play on Asset. Once i imported it into iTunes, it would not play afterwards on Asset. So it appears iTunes does something to the music!!!!
Now, i suppose i could stop using iTunes, and this is a possibility, which is why i am considering J River. But i like to be able to also play my music on my laptop, than the hifi system, especially if i am travelling.
FLAC and ALAC is supposed to be of the same resolution and quality according to various reports online. Would you guys agree? Do FLAC and ALAC files play the same on a Naim streamer?
Please guide me, about a good metadata editor, if you can.
I think you mean UPnP media server; the Naim streamer is a UPnP renderer (the 'player' in common parlance).
Have you tried looking at the tagging? Anomalies like accented characters can cause problems in the hardware (and maybe J River is stripping out this information).
Another thing to do is to re-index the collection (but after checking the tagging!)
Asset has a very good reputation, and is known to work well with Naim renderers.
So Asset is just the server of the data, and the Naim product is the one that plays the file into music? If so, i didn't know that. So when i get the message "it can't play", this is on my iPhone inside the Naim application, so i should assume it is generated by the streamer (i.e. the Naim product)?
But i installed J River today, it gives a temporary license for a limited period, and it seems it has its own player. And via home network it can play on the Naim products over the wifi.
The Asset software is installed on a Mac mini which i use as NAS server (i think they call it NAS), and it is connected to the system via ethernet cable. The Q2 is also connected by ethernet cable.
In my reply to the comment by DaveBk i am explaining what procedure i normally follow. Perhaps you could give me some advice on that please.
I have been using Asset for a few years. My experience has always been positive... It just does what I need - serves FLAC transcoded to WAV and DSD.
I have very little material with accented characters, so I suppose with non English character sets there could be issues.
I'd stick with Asset, but get a good metadata editor and see if you can work out which characters upset the playback.
I use a Mac computer.
When the file is either downloaded, or ripped from a CD, or given by a friend, it usually works fine with Asset.
The problem seems to occur after i import the album into iTunes. I tend to convert most of my files into ALAC using XLD, or if it is a ripped CD, using iTunes. Classical music and high definition CD's i make them AIFF, iTunes recognises them.
With English titles i have never had a problem, but as i am a Greek person, i listen to a lot of Greek music too. Most of my Greek music is mp3 format, and absolutely all of it plays on iTunes. But not all of it will play on Asset. I tried changing the characters into capital case, or English, nothing. I do most of the tags editing via iTunes. You may ask me why i do this with iTunes, it is because of the mobile devices, where i synchronise music, mainly MP3 to hear in my travels (on the plane).
But recently i noticed that music downloaded as mp3 will play on Asset. Once i imported it into iTunes, it would not play afterwards on Asset. So it appears iTunes does something to the music!!!!
Now, i suppose i could stop using iTunes, and this is a possibility, which is why i am considering J River. But i like to be able to also play my music on my laptop, than the hifi system, especially if i am travelling.
FLAC and ALAC is supposed to be of the same resolution and quality according to various reports online. Would you guys agree? Do FLAC and ALAC files play the same on a Naim streamer?
Please guide me, about a good metadata editor, if you can.
I have MAC's with Audirvana. Now version +2 has a very simple metadata editor, which I use most of the time. Also use xAct. The latter is for free. AV+2 has a cost.
Regards.
Erich
I think you mean UPnP media server; the Naim streamer is a UPnP renderer (the 'player' in common parlance).
Have you tried looking at the tagging? Anomalies like accented characters can cause problems in the hardware (and maybe J River is stripping out this information).
Another thing to do is to re-index the collection (but after checking the tagging!)
Asset has a very good reputation, and is known to work well with Naim renderers.
So Asset is just the server of the data, and the Naim product is the one that plays the file into music? If so, i didn't know that. So when i get the message "it can't play", this is on my iPhone inside the Naim application, so i should assume it is generated by the streamer (i.e. the Naim product)?
But i installed J River today, it gives a temporary license for a limited period, and it seems it has its own player. And via home network it can play on the Naim products over the wifi.
The Asset software is installed on a Mac mini which i use as NAS server (i think they call it NAS), and it is connected to the system via ethernet cable. The Q2 is also connected by ethernet cable.
In my reply to the comment by DaveBk i am explaining what procedure i normally follow. Perhaps you could give me some advice on that please.
There are three bits to a UPnP system
The Renderer - this is the bit that turns the file into an audio signal
The Media Server - this bit send the file that's been chosen to the renderer
The Control Point - this is the user interface application you use to tell the server which file(s) to send to the renderer
J River has all three implemented in software and using it's Control Point, you can choose a particular a Media Server, select which file you want to play and select which renderer is used to play them.
It does seem that iTunes may be doing something to the metadata that either Asset or (more likely) the Naim streamer can't work with. However I don't use iTunes so unfortunately I can't help you work out what this might be.
I think you mean UPnP media server; the Naim streamer is a UPnP renderer (the 'player' in common parlance).
Have you tried looking at the tagging? Anomalies like accented characters can cause problems in the hardware (and maybe J River is stripping out this information).
Another thing to do is to re-index the collection (but after checking the tagging!)
Asset has a very good reputation, and is known to work well with Naim renderers.
So Asset is just the server of the data, and the Naim product is the one that plays the file into music? If so, i didn't know that. So when i get the message "it can't play", this is on my iPhone inside the Naim application, so i should assume it is generated by the streamer (i.e. the Naim product)?
But i installed J River today, it gives a temporary license for a limited period, and it seems it has its own player. And via home network it can play on the Naim products over the wifi.
The Asset software is installed on a Mac mini which i use as NAS server (i think they call it NAS), and it is connected to the system via ethernet cable. The Q2 is also connected by ethernet cable.
In my reply to the comment by DaveBk i am explaining what procedure i normally follow. Perhaps you could give me some advice on that please.
There are three bits to a UPnP system
The Renderer - this is the bit that turns the file into an audio signal
The Media Server - this bit send the file that's been chosen to the renderer
The Control Point - this is the user interface application you use to tell the server which file(s) to send to the renderer
J River has all three implemented in software and using it's Control Point, you can choose a particular a Media Server, select which file you want to play and select which renderer is used to play them.
It does seem that iTunes may be doing something to the metadata that either Asset or (more likely) the Naim streamer can't work with. However I don't use iTunes so unfortunately I can't help you work out what this might be.
Very useful, thanks.
If i was not to use iTunes as the tags editor, what else can i use for tags editing, plus with the ability to embed album art? What do you use if i may ask, please?
Hi Paristhea, in the Naim use of UPnP media it's actually the streamer network player (renderer) that pulls the media data back from the media server, contrary to popular belief there are no actual file transferred. Now if the media index the renderer has has some how become invalid or can't resolve to an actual file on the media server, an error will occur and the Can't Play message will appear on the Naim.
I would first look at the characters used in the file name. Are there any extended characters In it? It might be you have exposed an operating system/Asset inter working issue on your setup.
Try ensuring the files are all standard ASCI characters, and leave the full extended characters to the metadata. This metadata is designed to support such characters.
Also as said above, re index Asset, it might be you have moved files around and not told Asset to update its database, therefore the file indexes it has might not resolve to a file.
Asset does work reasonably well with Naim.
Simon
Hi Paristhea, in the Naim use of UPnP media it's actually the streamer network player (renderer) that pulls the media data back from the media server, contrary to popular belief there are no actual file transferred. Now if the media index the renderer has has some how become invalid or can't resolve to an actual file on the media server, an error will occur and the Can't Play message will appear on the Naim.
I would first look at the characters used in the file name. Are there any extended characters In it? It might be you have exposed an operating system/Asset inter working issue on your setup.
Try ensuring the files are all standard ASCI characters, and leave the full extended characters to the metadata. This metadata is designed to support such characters.
Also as said above, re index Asset, it might be you have moved files around and not told Asset to update its database, therefore the file indexes it has might not resolve to a file.
Asset does work reasonably well with Naim.
Simon
Simon,
I've found that some extended characters in some metadata fields can confuse the Naim streamer. I didn't do enough research to tie down the circumstances. However, not all characters are OK in all metadata fields, and the problem becomes apparent at the streamer end of the system (missing tracks or albums if using the internal DMC on the streamer's display panel, or 'Can't Play' if using an external DMC).
I didn't realise the Naim streamers are DMPs and not DMRs (I did know they also have an embedded DMC).
That would also explain the unreliability I get when switching to a slower external DMCs - the audible problem is that tracks occasionally restart playback after about 0.5 seconds. The error is inconsistent usually occurring about 1 in 25 (1 in 5 at worst), making it really hard to capture. I assume that the external DMC isn't keeping in sync with the DMP's local controller (or possibly it's internal DMC, which also tries to synch itself with the DMP's local controller).
"contrary to popular belief there are no actual file transferred",
Yes it's stream (built of chunks taken from the file), but a lot of people don't really understand how that works; so it's much easier to think of it as the file being transferred in lots of little pieces.
Simon,
You may also be able to throw some light on another problem I have (currently it's cured using a fixed IP for the DMS, so it's curiosity rather than an issue that needs fixing):
If I enable DHCP for the DMS (Synology), then every time it's DHCP lease expires, one of the DMCs (the Android Naim App) looses access to the DMS. Resetting the app fixes it, but then the embedded DMC, the external DMC (the Naim App) and the streamer internal controller start having timing issues (the track restart problem). Sometimes this requires everything on the network to be reset, sometimes just rebooting the streamer fixes it.
As I say, using a fixed IP does essentially cure the problem, but I'd like to know if there's any rational sense behind this oddity, and I'd prefer to use DHCP if I can.
Hi Huge, I used to have a similar (maybe the same) expired lease problem when I tried fixed IP addresses.
I've since moved to fixing "reserved" IP address for NDX, NAS & iPad within the wireless routers allocated DHCP range, thereby effectively keeping DHCP & not getting into lease issues & but keeping the fixed IP address benefits.
My router DHCP range is X.64 to X.253 & I set the DHCP to "static" (reserved) for each of the devices & select a number far from the first used DHCP numbers at the X.64 end - I use X.200, 202 & 202 - each of the NDX, NAS & iPad needs to be restarted (booted) to apply the reserved number & its never missed a beat in over 1 year.
Hi Huge, the Naim streamers can run as a DMR (using DLNA terminology) if you really want it to, and push data to it, however the way it work with the Naim app is a DMC. The playlist, which could be an album, is loaded into the DMP by the controller (Naim App) and the player pulls back the media by working through it current playlist.
As far as your stuttering issues, I think one would need to look at the wire with an analyser, but it sounds like it could be an occasional TCP windowing issue between media server and player.
Your DHCP issue again could be many issues... When the lease is renewed the old IP address should be assigned if possible...so it's not clear what is going on, it could be a DHCP interoperability issue with your DHCP server.
However as far as the DMC finding the DMP and media server, this relies on the fact that they use a specific multicast address as a means of discovering each other. Now most home networks treat multicast in a very basic way since most home networks have trivial amounts of traffic, the multicast traffic is simply broadcast out on all the switch ports. if your home network does not use a multicast router or multicast querier - and most don't, then the discovery relies on the devices occasionally querying all devices using the multicast address. If the DMC is not active, or has not a valid IP address, or it thinks it has a different address to the one it has been recently given a new one and has not been updated correctly in the application stack (this might be what is happening with you), it will not respond correctly to the multicast query.. and will become invisible to UPnP , although it might be visible on the network.
if this is what is happening, then I suspect it's an Android OS issue or Naim App / Android issue. Again an analyzer on the wire will confirm this.
Simon
Thanks guys,
To fix the discovery problem I have the router's private address DHCP range to be X.001 to X.222, all addresses X.223 and above are static. When the NAS is set to use set to a static IP address in this range, I never get discovery issues. When the NAS is set to use DHCP, I get discovery issues on lease renewal, even when the same IP address is allocated (this is what confused me!). I do allow IGMP trafic.
Hi Simon,
I don't think it's a TCP windowing issue, it's too definitively liked to the controller(s) used:
If I reboot everything and only use the Streamer's own DMC (buttons or IR remote) I don't get the issue.
If I reboot everything and only use the Android Tablet I don't get the issue.
If after using the Android Tablet I then use the Streamer's own DMC (buttons or IR remote) I don't get the issue.
If after using Streamer's own DMC (buttons or IR remote) I then use the the Android Tablet I usually do get the issue until I reboot everything.
As I don't have a clue what needs to be used as a data collection trigger Using analyser would mean catching a rare (1in25) occurrence exactly right - not an easy task. I may just have to live with it. For now I just ensure I do everything through the tablet and don't use the steamer's own DMC. Before I got the tablet, everything was pretty much faultless!
I may try allocating a static IP for the streamer as well, but that's clutching at straws.
.... hmm ???? are you saying its not possible to fix (reserve) a number within the x.001 to x.222 DHCP range to each device's MAC thereby keeping everything within DHCP protocol???
Forgot to add on the Discovery thing, I do have UDP port 1900 open for internal traffic.
.... hmm ???? are you saying its not possible to fix (reserve) a number within the x.001 to x.222 DHCP range to each device's MAC thereby keeping everything within DHCP protocol???
I haven't tried, as even when DHCP re-allocates the same IP address, the refresh of the lease still causes the problem. My understanding is that statically allocating addresses in DHCP simply ensures that the same IP address is allocated when the lease is refreshed.
OK I'm lost ......... when my all dynamic DHCP system renewed the lease it took time to discover the audio devices. But now with it set to static IP adresses alocated to the specific MAC's, discovery issues are no longer an issue; in fact since doing this I am never aware of a lease refresh, or the regular automatic router IP address changes, updates, upgrades & anything else that causes BT to reboot the router.
I can't believe cheap-as-chips BT can do this & an up market router can't
Hi Huge, the UPnP discovery IP multicast address is 235.255.255.250. You can ping that and should see replies back from all your UPnP devices.
As far as the stutter, without looking at the network trace one can't be sure whether it's TCP related or not. I feel it's unlikely to be the controller, unless the controller is telling the player to restart of course...
I used to get an occasional pause/stutter briefly after the start of media playback, about .5 to 1 second in. I haven't recently experienced that with the latest NDX firmware I am running.
Simon
EDIT: Mike the latest BT HomeHub router is quite an advanced device. BT Vision and Superfast has required more capable devices. As far as discovery improving, the only thing I can think of is that incidents of a possible inconsistency between app and lower layer network stack caused by a newly assigned IP address has been removed, or issues with ARP tables not updating properly or quickly enough on the switch, or app clients.
Simon,
Actually 239.255.255.250, but I know what you meant, interesting the Synology seems to go to sleep and not respond, even though it's config is set to never sleep.
I have had the stutter with 4.3, and I suspect that one of the controllers is out of sync with the other two and that one is telling it to restart. Possibly because that particular one hasn't heard an acknowledgement from the streamer hardware that it's started the next track. This is typically the problem that happens when you have more officers than squaddies!
Indeed 239. memory not as good as it used to be 
. Ok that sounds bad on the Synology device...
EDIT: Mike the latest BT HomeHub router is quite an advanced device. BT Vision and Superfast has required more capable devices.
Hi Simon, it might well be with HH5, but I only have the HH4. Whatever, it works faultlessly for my reserved IP method.
Hi Paristhea, in the Naim use of UPnP media it's actually the streamer network player (renderer) that pulls the media data back from the media server, contrary to popular belief there are no actual file transferred. Now if the media index the renderer has has some how become invalid or can't resolve to an actual file on the media server, an error will occur and the Can't Play message will appear on the Naim.
I would first look at the characters used in the file name. Are there any extended characters In it? It might be you have exposed an operating system/Asset inter working issue on your setup.
Try ensuring the files are all standard ASCI characters, and leave the full extended characters to the metadata. This metadata is designed to support such characters.
Also as said above, re index Asset, it might be you have moved files around and not told Asset to update its database, therefore the file indexes it has might not resolve to a file.
Asset does work reasonably well with Naim.
Simon
Hi Simon,
I was travelling all day today, so the late reply.
The strange issue is that file name characters are all normal. Many of my songs use Greek characters, and although the Naim Q2 display can not display these, most songs play ok, no problems.
Some use capital letters some use lower case letters.
There is no sequence or anything i can identify, related to the files that "can't play". At least nothing visible to me on a Mac OS, and by using the "get info" view. Same files play ok on iTunes or on MPlayerX application, or VLC.
How do i re-index Asset, is it simply by choosing "refresh all"?
Hi Paristhea, in the Naim use of UPnP media it's actually the streamer network player (renderer) that pulls the media data back from the media server, contrary to popular belief there are no actual file transferred. Now if the media index the renderer has has some how become invalid or can't resolve to an actual file on the media server, an error will occur and the Can't Play message will appear on the Naim.
I would first look at the characters used in the file name. Are there any extended characters In it? It might be you have exposed an operating system/Asset inter working issue on your setup.
Try ensuring the files are all standard ASCI characters, and leave the full extended characters to the metadata. This metadata is designed to support such characters.
Also as said above, re index Asset, it might be you have moved files around and not told Asset to update its database, therefore the file indexes it has might not resolve to a file.
Asset does work reasonably well with Naim.
Simon
Simon,
I've found that some extended characters in some metadata fields can confuse the Naim streamer. I didn't do enough research to tie down the circumstances. However, not all characters are OK in all metadata fields, and the problem becomes apparent at the streamer end of the system (missing tracks or albums if using the internal DMC on the streamer's display panel, or 'Can't Play' if using an external DMC).
I didn't realise the Naim streamers are DMPs and not DMRs (I did know they also have an embedded DMC).
That would also explain the unreliability I get when switching to a slower external DMCs - the audible problem is that tracks occasionally restart playback after about 0.5 seconds. The error is inconsistent usually occurring about 1 in 25 (1 in 5 at worst), making it really hard to capture. I assume that the external DMC isn't keeping in sync with the DMP's local controller (or possibly it's internal DMC, which also tries to synch itself with the DMP's local controller).
"contrary to popular belief there are no actual file transferred",
Yes it's stream (built of chunks taken from the file), but a lot of people don't really understand how that works; so it's much easier to think of it as the file being transferred in lots of little pieces.
Simon,
You may also be able to throw some light on another problem I have (currently it's cured using a fixed IP for the DMS, so it's curiosity rather than an issue that needs fixing):
If I enable DHCP for the DMS (Synology), then every time it's DHCP lease expires, one of the DMCs (the Android Naim App) looses access to the DMS. Resetting the app fixes it, but then the embedded DMC, the external DMC (the Naim App) and the streamer internal controller start having timing issues (the track restart problem). Sometimes this requires everything on the network to be reset, sometimes just rebooting the streamer fixes it.
As I say, using a fixed IP does essentially cure the problem, but I'd like to know if there's any rational sense behind this oddity, and I'd prefer to use DHCP if I can.
Hi Huge,
I find your observation that the Naim streamer getting confused, correct. It is my only conclusion too.
I will possibly purchase the Medatatics tag editor and play with it a bit in order to try and see if any data inserted by iTunes is kind of "garbage".
Would anyone from Naim R&D be interested to look into this issue do you think? How to make them aware of the problem? It could be a simple upgrade somewhere.
Kindly explain what is a DMC, DMR.
Regards,
Try setting Asset to decode these files before sending to the player, to do so for FLAC you would set it to 'as wav' in the advanced configuration page. Once you have done this, clear your playlist and re add the tracks (after refreshing the display).