SQ drop through NDX when streaming when compared to CD

Agreed Chris,  wireless streaming would be first on my hit list.

No matter what the wireless fans say about it,  & I agree it can be OK with some systems - thinking Sono etc., but in my book it has issues & I would never use it to stream anything I considered as high quality audio - more so 24 bit high sample rates.

Once the NDX is wired,  its only a matter of time before the CDP is no longer used

Put some files on a a USB thumb drive to test.  Plug the drive directly into the usb port of the NDX. Does that sound the same as streaming? The same as CD? Better? Just different?

My experience in my system after many trials and hardware in and out is that direct to USB sounds better than streaming. 

........  I posted something similar ion another thread this morning .......

Disagree that USB is better,  get the LAN right & there is nothing to choose 

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...95#49154751601712295

Nevertheless, USB can be a good troubleshooting tool in this case. If the USB files sound as good as CD then work on the network side of the problem.  If the USB files sound the same as streaming, rip a few cds with EAC and see how they work.  If those files that we reripped sound no different than the old ones , then it is what it is.

Are you ripping to uncompressed FLAC?

How does a track ripped to WAV sound when streamed?

I think the key is to get a good wired connection. I basically have my NAS close and have my internet connection through mains connection. We all might know that this is not the best network solution. But my music is always streaming at the best quality and definitely better then CD at the same level of file quality. It can be further improved by ethernet cables, powersupplies for the nas.....

Have fun.

I have to admit to an aversion to modulating the mains supply with all manner of signals, though maybe it is so noisy that more would make no difference - and it may be that your power supply adequately filters it out. One of the arguments in favour of Mac Mini /Audirvana approach is that it apparently dumps the whole file into RAM before starting play, so is not affected by dropouts while playing - I offer this just as an observation because I don't know if the NDX does that, nor whether some level of data loss on the fly might account for the difference you are hearing.

Seriosuly get a couple dollar small capacity USB stick.  Kingston Datatraveler works well for me. Throw 5 or 10 files on it. Test it out as an intermediate step.  See where that leads you.  Trust me.  It is the simplest thing to try. 

I am in the same boat as far as Ethernet signal goes.  I am at the opposite end of the house amd can't get a hardwire there.  I have done several different things including moving the server to the Hi-fi. 

I had adverse affects with using Ethernet over Mains supply.

The USB test would determine if the quality of the rips is an issue -- probably not.

Next test would be to wire the Vortex Box and NDX both into a network switch, taking both temporarily off the larger network.  Set IP addresses for each manually, unless th VB has the ability to serve DHCP.  If that solves the issue, add an AirPort Express or similar Wi-Fi bridge device to the switch, turn off DHCP server on VB, and re-join the main network (to enable iRadio).

You know your NDX can sound great.  Dilligent setup will be rewarded.

Good luck.

Nick

Or, test VB via optical into the NDX, same as CD -- leave the NDX on the network to retain iPad control.

I suspect it's the WiFi. Whilst wireless is certainly convenient, it is no match for wired Ethernet in so many ways. I use a Ruckus business class WiFi access point and it's great for standard browsing or email via my iPad, but my desktop and all music related equipment is hard wired. I agree that routing cable around the house is tricky, but with careful thought there are usually routes that work without ripping the place apart... On one occasion I drilled 1.5m from the loft space down a block partition wall, then found the bit with a metal detector, then drilled an intercepting hole from below to a wall box. This avoided channelling out and replastering.

Dave.

The solution, for me, was to move the server closer to the streamer so they can be connected (via a switch) with wired Ethernet. No need to connect it directly to your router if that's too far away. 

By 'mains transmitters', I presume you mean powerline adapters, homeplugs, ethernet over mains, or whatever they're called. These can be a convenient solution, but they are notorious for introducing interference that can degrade sound quality, so I would approach them with caution.  

When I set up my loan NDX at the weekend I was running the LAN connection from my NAS via ethernet over power. I was getting dropouts on some hi res files so I placed the NAS locally to the NDX, wired directly though a switch (airport extreme) not only did dropout issue resolve but I noticed an improvement in SQ.

I was wireless into SuperUniti until I installed a 25m run direct from the office to listening room. A noticeable difference, tighter bass, more detail etc. i could not hear any difference when comparing USB to wired though.

In my experience, I can hear a lot of differences when I play the same file ripped from a cd as a FLAC, ALAC or WAV file. With firmware 4.3 the difference between FLAC and ALAC had become less, due to what can only describe as a different soundstage overall.

So, I would try to convert the ripped file to different formats and listen.

CDs are not inferior to digital files. It could simply be that the combination of your cd transporter and the fact that this way sound production is directly from the Redbook format of the CD, sounds superior to FLAC, ALAC or WAV.

As far as rippers go, the myths are endless. It could be that your Vortexbox has a faulty cd transport, but that would rather show in glitches. If you have a PC around, just verify by ripping the cd on your PC with iTunes or Window Media Player and compare to rule this out.

as far as cabeling vs wifi. I'm not daring to enter this debate, but lately Ars Technical has debunked the myth of "audio Ethernet cables". That is a good read.

The digital data on a Red Book CD aren't written directly as the PCM data, they are written using Reed-Solomon encoding.  FLAC  data are written using polynomial + Huffman encoding.  Mathematically, the CD data are slightly more complex to decode to PCM than the FLAC data.

 Just use a ripper that uses 'AccurateRip' to verify the data, (for the PC, DBPoweramp and EAC both do this).

The audio test in article referred to (correctly) only concluded that "Six out of the seven people who engaged in the test could not distinguish the cables in the specified conditions".  This implies that one did consistently identify the cable.  To use this to imply that no one can distinguish these cables or that there is no difference is statistically and logically incorrect.

The technical test centred on data transmission characteristics.  The conclusion of some other technically informed persons is that different Ethernet cables can result in different tuning of the RFI introduced into the following analogue electronics, rather than differences in the data transmission; and that these differences may result in perceived differences in the sound.  This was simply not tested.

The tests were valid within the parameters of the tests.  It is not valid to draw conclusion outside these parameters.

 Here's a photo of the system used in this trial. If I'd posted a picture of a dogs dinner like this in the System Pics thread, I'd be ripped to shreds for putting together such a chaotic jumble of power cables, wall warts etc and thinking it might sound any good, especially when a highly revealing system would have been useful in revealing any differences in sound quality between two cables.  

Isn't it also just a little bit of a coincidence that this test was carried out by a certain James Randi, who makes a lot of money by very publicly debunking all manner of claims, and clearly had a vested interest in the outcome of the trial?

Photo credit: Ars Technica website. Richard, please feel free to delete the pic if it's against forum rules - if anyone wants to find it, it's easy enough to search. 

I have re read the test, the piece can be found here: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets...-make-no-difference/

The question asked was if people could tell which one was the audio specific Ethernet cable. They did not ask about the music experience. Which I guess was the right question. Also, in that piece they link to an analysis done on the cables, which is quite insightful. Those are really hard measurements.

If you would actually read the piece, instead of mumbling about a picture, you would read that Ars Technica puts a lot of ifs and buts about the conclusions of the test.

The trouble with an audiophile audience is that you cannot have a even headed conversation about this. It borders on having a discusion about the existence of God with the most rabiate conservative priests to be found in a church, it is energy wasted to even try.

If it makes you feel good to buy a 300$ cable, by all means do. If you like the sound of your CD player better than your streamer, why not use the CD player? If you doubt your setup, ask someone to help with changing it and trust your ears only to evaluate the result. *You* have to enjoy the music, that what it is about. And if you feel you got the max enjoyment by hanging your Naim hair upside down from the ceiling, please do.

Huge, it is simply impossible to statistically test the influence of the enjoyment of music of a certain piece of equipment. The variables of what constitutes 'enjoyment' are much more varied than the variables of the single piece of enjoyment. You'd have to be able to fix the level of enjoyment but for that one variable.

I have witnessed once a double blinded experiment where they did A/B testing, where both the audience and the people working the equipment did not know what was what.

results where varied after 90 minutes of testing. Then came the big surprise: the equipment sets where equal. There was not A/B, there was only A/A.

if you ask people if they hear, feel or experience differences, they will. Always.

how does one detect 'mumbling' when using a keyboard??