USB type Interconnect quality for a Mac or PC to a DAC ?
Posted by: Disposable hero on 28 September 2015
Dear knowledgeable minds,
At the moment I'm using a NaimDAC, which might be replaced with a Chord 2Qute or preferably Hugo TT (all depends on the outcome of the next NaimDAC firmware update). In terms of interconnections between a MacBook Pro (or any other computing source) through USB cable to DAC, does the interconnect quality really matter? Essentially it will handle data transmission, so would it be sufficient to use any computer-grade USB type A-B which can be picked up in Maplin or found on amazon e.g. LINDY USB type A-B cables?
Are there really any sonic benefits to investing in audio-grade USB interconnects, as produced by Audioquest, Chord Company or WireWorld and what are your experiences with these for your computer to DAC setups?
Thank you.
I posted the following onto another thread, so apologise for the dupe, but suspect it was off-topic for the other thread, and that may have gone cold anyway. It seems on-topic here.....
If we are talking about the iFi Gemini cable, or equivalent, I am still struggling to "get" the concept behind this. Well, I partially get it, but not fully.....
The idea of separating the USB power from the signal seems sensible enough (I assume this is achieved by removing some connector strips within the two 'A' plugs ?). BUT, is it fair to assume the USB bus goes to the same lengths of isolation/separation ? I would guess not, and if the upstream section allows for potential interference between power & signal, to what extent can that be mitigated downstream (in the cable) ?
Also, at the B plug end of the cable, the 2 components seem to be merged again. Would that not simply cancel out the 'benefit' brought by the cable itself, and carry any USB power noise into the DAC ? A DAC which, incidentally, may not even need USB power at all. I can see a case for offering another cable design which picks up and carries signal only, for use with self-powered DACS.
Appreciate any further insight to the technical goings on with this cable, which might allay my concerns above......
PS I'm not suggesting that the Gemini doesn't work, or doesn't sound better, etc. I'm just wondering about how/why it works.
Karlos, the noise induced into the signal conductor from the power, or vice versa requires a sinificant length of the conductors to be in very close (i.e. touching) proximity. The joining of the two cables at the B connector has little to no impact from a noise perspective.
Pleas note that if the isolator/convertor or the DAC it is connected too does NOT utilize the power from the USB port then the dual cable will not provide any significant benefit. In which case a more standard type of USB cable, like those used on computers, or those from esoteric brands can be used.
Brilliant reminded me that the quality of the power from the computers USB port is subject to internal fluctuations that can be attributed to the computers internal power demands.
E.g. If the music is stored on the computers hard drive, everytime the Computer accesses that drive the current draw actually cause the USb voltage to fluctuate. Solid state drives have less impact due to less current required.
Regards
Hi Brilliant,
That may well be the idea. So they are really selling pieces of a jigsaw. A bit like Naim really.... ;-)
Hi Williewonka,
That is a helpful clarification, and in that context the design makes more sense to me....
Hi Brilliant,
That may well be the idea. So they are really selling pieces of a jigsaw. A bit like Naim really.... ;-)
Well - they are offering what audiophiles crave: 'fine tuning tools' to play with. Some of these solutions will not be compliant with the USB standard! Naim does offer the Nait/Uniti/Muso product as the one box solution.
Further to this,
I have discovered there are powerless USB cables available, eg from Elijah Audio and Korona, probably amongst others. The Elijah Audio Isolation got a strong review in 6Moons.
But there is an issue - they don't always work ! It appears to be entirely hardware dependent, and basically pot luck. In some cases it seems even a self powered DAC or USB converter actually needs the USB power rail to complete the 'handshake' with the sender, eg the computer, even if it can rely on data only thereafter......
It's worth while remembering that asynchronous audio over USB is ultimately handicapped with conducted electrical noise. This noise is generated from the USB Isochronous protocol itself for signalling. It does this by unbalancing the twisted pair serial data pair by sending unbalanced pulses. As many will know such an action will produce a fairly significant electromagnetic field if done at a sufficiently fast rate, which in itself can produce RFI.
Yes, extensive effort can be made to decouple the interfacing, shield the twisted pairs to reduce emissions, and keep the USB cable well routed away from anything sensitive. But I suspect the optimum SQ with minimal RFI would be USB into a detached SPDIF converter, and then run SPDIF into DAC.
For critical listening, I have always been let down with USB direct connections.
USB was not really developed as a critical interface and protocol, it was more a case of ease of use and low cost.
Simon
Good points Simon.
I have always been puzzled why HDMI didn't become the de-facto standard. In the AV world it is king of the hill. And most windows machines (if not Macs) have one. OK its not going to power other devices, but I'm unclear why that should be the be all and end all.....
It's worth while remembering that asynchronous audio over USB is ultimately handicapped with conducted electrical noise. This noise is generated from the USB Isochronous protocol itself for signalling. It does this by unbalancing the twisted pair serial data pair by sending unbalanced pulses. As many will know such an action will produce a fairly significant electromagnetic field if done at a sufficiently fast rate, which in itself can produce RFI.
Yes, extensive effort can be made to decouple the interfacing, shield the twisted pairs to reduce emissions, and keep the USB cable well routed away from anything sensitive. But I suspect the optimum SQ with minimal RFI would be USB into a detached SPDIF converter, and then run SPDIF into DAC.
For critical listening, I have always been let down with USB direct connections.
USB was not really developed as a critical interface and protocol, it was more a case of ease of use and low cost.
Simon
Hi Simon,
Do you have further insight into the Naim/Audiophilleo DAC-V1 USB implementation re:noise rejection? All they talk about is async & jitter in their white paper. Once I found a good USB cable for it I was rather impressed by its fidelity. You can really listen 'into' the recording - layers of detail & 3D space!
But there is an issue - they don't always work ! It appears to be entirely hardware dependent, and basically pot luck. In some cases it seems even a self powered DAC or USB converter actually needs the USB power rail to complete the 'handshake' with the sender, eg the computer, even if it can rely on data only thereafter......
Karlos - it is because one (or more) of the internal circuits (normally the USB interface circuit) in some of the DAC or the USB/SPDIF converters out there is actually powered by the USB power rail.
E.G. my Schiit DAC has it's own power cable/supply, but the USB interface it employs is actually powered by the USB interface. If I don't use the power side of my dual USB cable the DAC does not work at all
Unfortunately there is no way of telling - other than to contact the brand - even then, they may not respond. At least Shiit gave me an honest answer when I asked
Everything is not always as it would appear on the outside :-)
Good points Simon.
I have always been puzzled why HDMI didn't become the de-facto standard. In the AV world it is king of the hill. And most windows machines (if not Macs) have one. OK its not going to power other devices, but I'm unclear why that should be the be all and end all.....
The Bryston BDA-3 with four HDMI inputs was supposed to be out last spring. It seems to be taking forever for one reason or another!
It's worth while remembering that asynchronous audio over USB is ultimately handicapped with conducted electrical noise. This noise is generated from the USB Isochronous protocol itself for signalling. It does this by unbalancing the twisted pair serial data pair by sending unbalanced pulses. As many will know such an action will produce a fairly significant electromagnetic field if done at a sufficiently fast rate, which in itself can produce RFI.
Yes, extensive effort can be made to decouple the interfacing, shield the twisted pairs to reduce emissions, and keep the USB cable well routed away from anything sensitive. But I suspect the optimum SQ with minimal RFI would be USB into a detached SPDIF converter, and then run SPDIF into DAC.
For critical listening, I have always been let down with USB direct connections.
USB was not really developed as a critical interface and protocol, it was more a case of ease of use and low cost.
Simon
Right, but what I do not understand is why there must be data transmission (and related RFI, time inconsistencies, etc.) going during replay at all.
With USB3 and GbE, it would take just a few seconds to transfer hours of replay data to an on-DAC storage before starting replay. Memory is nowadays available at low voltage, low price and high density.
With the data in a local DAC storage, who would care how it arrived there? The DAC could be fully optimized for replay from its local storage and there would be no waste of resources for synchronizing, buffering, reclocking, etc.
To me it seems that USB streaming and, perhaps by a lesser extent, Ethernet streaming are both solutions which are essentially compromised by design.
By the way, 2TB of SSD can be bought for about 500 pounds today! Best, nbpf
Hmmm, I've taken a gamble and ordered a Furutech ADL Formula 2, partly for its recommendations but also to give a 'just right' fit at 1.2M in my layout. The bog standard(?) USB cable that comes with a Chord 2Qute is 3.0M and leaves an untidy heap when laid from Mac to DAC, so perhaps for the sake of a less shabby view it will give some returns.
I've used plenty of Furutec stuff and it is serious good quality. Naim also use the odd Furutec component here and there. In fact, they use Furutec plugs on the non UK PowerLine. I would be surprised if the USB cable was anything other than excellent. Though, I would expect any USB cable of 1.2m to allow a perfect data transfer. How good the shield the receiving end from getting unwanted vibration and RFI on the other hand is another matter.
I'm sure the cable will be excellent.
The Furutech ADL Formula 2 has been put in place of a USB lead that came with a Chord 2Qute and there is an improvement in the sound quality. Various clichés could be used but as a few examples it has increased the timing and liveliness of the music, details are improved but also a less 'digital' sound, more natural. So the shorter length is one factor and then the cable construction could be another, either way it worked out fine.
I do not have any 'audiophile' cables but I was astonished to find two specific cables making a difference to the sound of the DAC-V1. I normally use it via SPDIF on a desktop, but now have it on a laptop. I used a Belkin 'gold series' USB cable and thought the frequency balance was 'dark' with pronounced bass. I had another cable that came with a Maxtor HDD. Using this one I immediately heard a more balanced presentation (the way I am used to hearing it)! Funnily enough the Belkin works very well with another DAC I have - so I can't point to the cable as such. Moreover they both give bit-perfect results with the DAC-V1. It must have something to do with the DAC design itself (a little beyond my understanding).
I would not spend too much money on a USB cable but I would certainly try a few within my budget to see which one (if any) worked best with the DAC!
I went through some USB cables in the lab and found one that snaps everything into focus for the DAC-V1. It is a cable that I suspect came with an old HP printer . It has markings: AWM 2835 30V 60 deg C UEI E-177865 Cheng USB 28 1P/24 AWG 2C . I suppose that is a twisted pair for data and 2 bigger conductors for power made by Universal Electronis Inc.?
I've put a new tag on it 'DAC-V1'.
Here is another cable that I have been enjoying tremendously. It preserves the detailed sound space like the one above but perhaps presents the DAC-V1 as a tad 'drier/lighter/warmer' in comparison. Made in China by C2G (Cables to Go) and currently sold (but not branded) under the name "Ultima" by C2G !
I have a 2 meter version with the markings: "..AWM 2725 E322376 ..USB 2 ..AWG 28 1p AWG 24 2C 60deg C 30V.. HiBest". UPC 757120291411.
I do not have any 'audiophile' cables but I was astonished to find two specific cables making a difference to the sound of the DAC-V1. I normally use it via SPDIF on a desktop, but now have it on a laptop. I used a Belkin 'gold series' USB cable and thought the frequency balance was 'dark' with pronounced bass. I had another cable that came with a Maxtor HDD. Using this one I immediately heard a more balanced presentation (the way I am used to hearing it)! Funnily enough the Belkin works very well with another DAC I have - so I can't point to the cable as such. Moreover they both give bit-perfect results with the DAC-V1. It must have something to do with the DAC design itself (a little beyond my understanding).
I would not spend too much money on a USB cable but I would certainly try a few within my budget to see which one (if any) worked best with the DAC!
I went through some USB cables in the lab and found one that snaps everything into focus for the DAC-V1. It is a cable that I suspect came with an old HP printer . It has markings: AWM 2835 30V 60 deg C UEI E-177865 Cheng USB 28 1P/24 AWG 2C . I suppose that is a twisted pair for data and 2 bigger conductors for power made by Universal Electronis Inc.?
I've put a new tag on it 'DAC-V1'.
Here is another cable that I have been enjoying tremendously. It preserves the detailed sound space like the one above but perhaps presents the DAC-V1 as a tad 'drier/lighter/warmer' in comparison. Made in China by C2G (Cables to Go) and currently sold (but not branded) under the name "Ultima" by C2G !
I have a 2 meter version with the markings: "..AWM 2725 E322376 ..USB 2 ..AWG 28 1p AWG 24 2C 60deg C 30V.. HiBest". UPC 757120291411.
Another cable worthy of mention re: DAC-V1 partnership- is the Supra USB 2 from (Sweden). Not as 3D in imaging and some low level detail or definition is lost but very 'musical' nonetheless (perhaps more so than the 'Ultima' above).
Dear knowledgeable minds,
At the moment I'm using a NaimDAC, which might be replaced with a Chord 2Qute or preferably Hugo TT (all depends on the outcome of the next NaimDAC firmware update). In terms of interconnections between a MacBook Pro (or any other computing source) through USB cable to DAC, does the interconnect quality really matter? Essentially it will handle data transmission, so would it be sufficient to use any computer-grade USB type A-B which can be picked up in Maplin or found on amazon e.g. LINDY USB type A-B cables?
Are there really any sonic benefits to investing in audio-grade USB interconnects, as produced by Audioquest, Chord Company or WireWorld and what are your experiences with these for your computer to DAC setups?
Thank you.
I have delved into USB audio territory only recently - previously preferring quality SPDIF interfaces. When it comes to USB cables I can only recommend to try them out in your setup as they also seem to be system dependent (surprising to me) - do not discard 'commercial cables' if they look well made, branded or have a part number or spec number printed on them. Certainly do try the 'boutique' variety as well, but do not assume the more $ spent=better results (i.e. may or may not be the case)!
I haven't experimented extensively with USB cables but I like my Supra USB 2.0 cable between MacMini and Chord Qute EX. A definite improvement over a couple cheap USB cables I had lying around.
I liked the Supra cable a little bit more after modification ... a bit of key-hole surgery to snip out a small section of the 5v cable close to the plug at the MacMini end. Bit of heat shrink tubing over the scar, job done.
I haven't experimented extensively with USB cables but I like my Supra USB 2.0 cable between MacMini and Chord Qute EX. A definite improvement over a couple cheap USB cables I had lying around.
I liked the Supra cable a little bit more after modification ... a bit of key-hole surgery to snip out a small section of the 5v cable close to the plug at the MacMini end. Bit of heat shrink tubing over the scar, job done.
That is a good tip I believe about the 5V isolation (source end) of the Supra if you don't need it. I have been testing PC> DAC-V1 USB and found the sound with the Supra USB to be very nice but with a slightly diffuse image. However when connected PC>Supra USB> Uptone Audio USB Regen> DAC-V1, I got better delineation/definition of voices, instruments and a better sense of the low level detail !
I haven't experimented extensively with USB cables but I like my Supra USB 2.0 cable between MacMini and Chord Qute EX. A definite improvement over a couple cheap USB cables I had lying around.
I liked the Supra cable a little bit more after modification ... a bit of key-hole surgery to snip out a small section of the 5v cable close to the plug at the MacMini end. Bit of heat shrink tubing over the scar, job done.
That is a good tip I believe about the 5V isolation (source end) of the Supra if you don't need it. I have been testing PC> DAC-V1 USB and found the sound with the Supra USB to be very nice but with a slightly diffuse image. However when connected PC>Supra USB> Uptone Audio USB Regen> DAC-V1, I got better delineation/definition of voices, instruments and a better sense of the low level detail !
I did not mean to imply here that DAC-V1 sounds better with the Uptone USB Regen. I actually much prefer it without it as the overall sound 'flows' better. I was simply agreeing with Allan that there may be more one could do to improve the Supra USB 2.
Between a MAC Mini and DAC V1, I have used three different USB interconnect cables.
A stock Canon printer one,
a Supra, and
a Belkin Gold.
The £20 [or a little more] Supra was an improvement on the Canon printer cable, and the £10 Belkin was an improvement on the Supra. The Belkin Gold is no longer made, but may be found on Amazon as new. It is simply a well made standard USB cable not apparently optimised for audio use ...
ATB from George
^I tried Belkin Gold USB (10 ft with an adapter) in my PC setups into Chord Hugo and liked it so much that I bought one for the DAC-V1- but found it 'dark' if that makes any sense! I guess setups matter here as well as preference of course.
My Belkin Gold is quite short - one metre or one point two - and in reality I found this far from dark [if dark means rolled off in the treble], but naturally detailed and clear. Especially it was able to give the detail required to give a natural sense of distance on classical recordings and immediacy on the likes of the 1950s studio recordings of Ella Fitzgerald.
The Supra was rather more reticent on detail, and hence managed the trick of sounding the recording closer but less lucid. The Canon cable was more than satis, before the other two experiments.
ATB from George
^I believe I know what you mean about the Supra USB/DAC-V1. I have another Belkin Gold USB A/B that is 6 ft long! I hooked it up and listened to it a little just now - Yes I would say 'dark' is the impression of less sparkle up top compared (for instance) to the one that came with an old Maxtor 'One Touch' HDD or desktop SPDIF, just a touch but noticeable. Otherwise excellent enough that I will try a shorter one some time.
About a month or so ago I put a 1 metre length of Vertere Acoustics D-Fi V2 USB cable between my 2015 MBP and Audiolab MDAC, replacing a variety of stock USB cables that I had previously been using. I am delighted with the Vertere as it seems to get out of the way and let the music come through, emphasising nothing but at the same time enhancing the overall sound. It's quite expensive at around
£85 delivered but I feel it has been worth it. If I were to try another cable then the arguments for double cables, separating power from signal, seem good ones.
I've been prodding around with the multi-meter and beginning to understand now why USB is such a poor connection method. Although the MacMini isn't earthed, it has a two-pin mains connector, it is being earthed by the HDMI cable from the monitor. Inside the MacMini, chassis earth is connected to the shield of the USB plug and to the GND wire inside the USB cable. At the DAC end, the GND wire and the USB shield are joined together and joined to the outer connectors of the RCA sockets, which in turn provide the signal ground to the Nait.
Apparently having the shield connected to ground at both ends of the cable and inside the devices is a USB standard so the manufacturers are obliged to adhere to it but does mean that the signal ground comes from the Mac (or indeed the monitor upstream of that) and not from the nice clean earth of my dedicated mains spur.
My cable has undergone further surgery. I've snipped the ground wire and the shield. The cable is still shielded but the shield is connected to ground at one end only. It still works, the USB signal is differential and doesn't need a ground, and I can now supply a signal earth to the Nait from the dedicated mains spur without fear of setting up an earth loop.
Not USB compliant but it's working fine for me. I'll have a proper listen tonight. This works fine for me as my Chord Qute EX does not need a 5v supply from the USB cable. Other DACs might. Ironically, this wouldn't work for the 2Qute because of the method of galvanic isolation it uses which requires the 5V supply to regenerate the signal internally.
^^If referring to Supra USB 2 from a physical construction perspective- that was non compliant to begin with. They claim to use individually shielded twisted pairs for both data & power! However USB 2 specifies a twisted data pair and a non-twisted Vbus/gnd pair with the overall shields/drain around the bundle! Of course they claim their scheme is better (and might be) for longer cables.