US get O.B.Laden?

Hawk, you are a jaundiced and unhappy fellow. I've been fortunate to live among several Asian communities in the UK and found the people who lived there far from threatening. I particularly used to enjoy pushing my young son past the mosque as it came out as everyone was always so cheerful and friendly and helpful.

I find your assertion that that some moderate Muslims are actually extremists particularly interesting. Perhaps a sign that you need to calm down and think things over?

Hawk,

Many others have admitted responsibility for 9/11 and many people admit to crimes for all kinds of motives but OBL was never found guilty in a court of law that I know of. The US bangs on about the need for democracy, the rule of law and how one is innocent until proven guilty and the vital differences that sets them apart from the great unwashed but when it comes to demonstrating the differences as opposed to merely talking about it on Fox News etc it shows itself as being not so different at all. Extraordinary rendition, Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp etc.  

You talk of all the evidense in the world - what a load of b0ll0cks. Did you believe the newspapers and TV when they showed diagrams and plans (but almost no footage) of his massive cave complex in the Tora Bora mountains - the secret lair of the evil james Bond type villain where OBL ran his worldwide web of  of highly trained armies and savage hordes of muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers? The fact is if the CIA really thought OBL was there they would have programmed a spy satellite to watch the area and the very second (in fact less than a second) that one little burst of radio signal left the ground the NSA would have logged it on their computers. In fact if anyone there had even farted at the right frequency it would have been picked up and a decision would have been made to send in special forces or bomb the area into dust. So how did OBL run his international networks? He sent out the trained killers on donkeys and used carrier pigeons - how else? A spectacular achievement considering he was living in a cave. It is also astonishing that no one ever decided to shop him for the ransome award but I guess he was only ever surrounded by brain washed islamic nutters.

I don't ulitmately know if OBL had anything to do with 9/11 or not and neither do you, You only know what you have been told by the fear mongerers. As for all the thousands you say OBL had murdered I would argue it is far less than the number one can lay at George W Bush's door which can be measured in the tens of thousands. Tens of thousands of innocent men,women and children. What goes around comes around.

He admitted to it. What don't you comprehend about that?

I'm not supporting George Bush. 

I'm saying this is a Muslim man who killed so many Muslims, and yet is revered.

"I don't ulitmately know if OBL had anything to do with 9/11 or not and neither do you, You only know what you have been told by the fear mongerers." Hmmm, don't tell me what I know or don't know. How do you really know?

Why do you think no one dared shop him around and claim the ransom? Think about it.

As for Osama's 'spectacular achievement'? Hmm, who enabled him? Things don't happen in a vacuum.

The point is, he's gone. His wives don't dispute it. Nor his daughter.

I didn't say that moderates are extremists. I said some cheer him on. Others are afraid to speak out. It is what it is.

I'm not jaundiced and unhappy, but if you need to label me, go right ahead. I'd rather just have this discourse, and not tell you personally what you are or aren't.

Contact my friends, Danny Nasser and Hashim Nasser in Calgary. They are some of my best friends. I do have some very close Muslim friends.

I have a problem with many aspects of Islam.

Maybe you need to think things through more.

Sincerely,

Dave

This is going to be a very interesting thread.

This is exactly the kind of discussion that ensued between my best friend/Naim dealer and myself before he self destructed. He got really upset with me because I wouldn't agree with him about his views about George Bush and 9/11. So he resorted to the f word. He got really abusive so I headed out into the night, found a hotel, and grabbed the first flight home. I forgave him. Fast forward, a few years later, he sells me on a pair of n-Sats, so I sent my money, and waited. Ultimately he called me from a soup kitchen (so he claimed) and was upset with me because I dared call the supplier and ask where my N-Sats where, after three months of lies. He then went on to make fun of my illness, OCD, and said it was all in my head. I asked him, politely, how a guy with an exclusive Naim dealership, in the richest province in Canada, could go bankrupt twice? I asked him if he 'owned' it, if his mental attitude had anything to do with his demise? Nothing. He took no responsibility for his actions. He did tell me to f off again. He ripped me off, ripped off some of his customers, and ripped off Manu (owner of Dimexs which at that time distributed Naim in Canada). Manu, by the way, is one of the most honest, decent souls I've ever met. 

This is basically the only forum I frequent. It's generally civil. It's an exchange of ideas. Last year on this forum I took exception to comments about how 'my people' control the US. I was waiting to hear a comment about how my people control the stereo world. I wondered how many people owned an LP12, and did they realize it was invented by a Jew? Not a single response. Last night I was contesting a very fine interesting Muslim woman who said in the local newspaper, comments section, the following. In response to Geert Wilders, she said "This man is a criminal and a white piece of trash that had sold out to the Zionist entities. He shall be hanged and torn to pieces and fed to the pigs while his family watches. It is a shame and a disgrace that he gets this support in Canada. Canada is corrupt and eroded by years of Zionist control. One day the country and you jew bastards will burn." I didn't label her, I defended her right to freedom of speech. I told her that since we controlled the world, we would even consider allowing the implementation of Sharia law. I would have to consult with my fellow Elders of Zion. You know, protocol, and all that.

I've been upset a bit lately, what with the questioning of our allegiance to Canada in supporting a political party that supports Israel. My father, and two uncles enlisted in WWII and were gone for several years overseas to fight for Canada. My uncle served in the Highlanders, and there is a tribute to him in London. I just get tired of the thinly veiled anti-semitism I have to face every day. My dad kept his religion and personal life private. Didn't shove it in anyone's face. I try to be a decent human being every day. I've never thought twice if my friends were Muslim or not. I just accepted them.

Dave

It is interesting being in a foreign country, and reading their newspapers when a significant world event occurs.  I am currently on vacation in South Africa, and the killing of OBL has been front page news since the day it happened.

South Africa used to be staunchly aligned with western interests, even after the dismantling of apartheid.  Now they sit on the fence, halfway between the west and the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, China).  So the news reporting is also...on the fence.   And yet, no one here doubts that for a moment that Al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11, the embassy in Kenya, the USS Cole, etc..   And no one here is questioning whether OBL was the head of Al Qaeda.  The South African government is pissed off that the raid was not a multilateral action, but then again, had it been, it seems very doubtful that it would have successful.

Papers here are reporting that "elements" within the Pakistani intelligence services has been protecting OBL for years, and in exchange, Al Qaeda have been a strong ally of Pakistan versus India, and supporting efforts to help Kashmir break away from India.   Pakistan and India have really never stopped fighting since separation in 1947.

I do not understand the finer points of international law, and I am certainly no right-wing wacko, but I do believe that any country, including the US, has the right to protect their own interests and safety.   How can anyone doubt that OBL remained a threat to the safety of the US and its allies?  Pakistan made it impossible to get to OBL through any type of multilateral action.  The decision to raid his compound, kill him, and remove a large amount of data about Al Qaeda's operations, was just by any sane measure of what is just.

Anyone who thinks that OBL had rights that needed protecting has simply not been paying very close attention for the last decade.

@sniper - I choose to ignore your pathetic attempts at a wind-up, and I wish Hawk had as well.

Hook, we've never met, and probably disagree on many things, but I respect you and your views and the right to express them.

Excuse me for being maudlin, but thank you for being 'you'.

Sincerely,

Dave

Hawk,

"I didn't say that moderates are extremists. I said some cheer him on."

So they're moderates who support extremism? 

As I said, perhaps you need to think things through a little more. For a start, why not go back and see if you can find the bit in my post where I said you didn't have any Muslim friends?

David, I'm saying they are moderates who support Bin Laden.

I didn't mention the bit about Muslim friends because of anything you said in your post.

I started thinking that maybe the members of the forum think I hate Muslims. I don't. That's why I said it, and, honestly, did not say it because of your post.

I'm sorry for even getting into 'labelling', whether someone is moderate, or this or that. But for the sake of this discussion I have.

I'm entitled to my opinion, and I'll stand by my thoughts. I said some moderates are afraid of speaking out, because of recriminations. Some do support him, in my opinion, and I neglected to mention that I think some moderate Muslims don't do anything but live their lives in peace and harmony.

I'm sorry, my intention was not to stereotype. I apologize for not being more specific when I said "Moderate Muslims aren't speaking out", I didn't mean to imply all, that's why I said some do 'this', and some do 'that', and I'm sorry I wasn't clearer.

Sincerely,

Dave

postscript - David, I re-read your comments, and I think part of the reason why I mentioned having Muslim friends was because you mentioned "I've been fortunate to live among several Asian communities in the UK and found the people who lived there far from threatening". I felt I needed to say that I have had many positive experiences too. Friendships, customers, and so on.

Dave,

For my part I mentioned the Asian communities I've lived in specifically in response to your comment about the 'no go zones' which are apparently supposed to have resulted from multiculturalism. My point was that you may have read about such places - you may even have read about them in British papers - but that doesn't necessarily make them real.

As for the other thing, I'm quite sure that some Muslims who go to mainstream mosques sympathise with the radicals without getting involved. My question was whether or not it really makes sense to call them moderate. Every time I repeat this it looks more and more like splitting hairs though, so I'll shut up. 

I will say though that,

"some moderate Muslims don't do anything but live their lives in peace and harmony"

still seems like a very, very, gross understatement.

David

Hawk -

Thanks for the kind words!

Hook

David Scott, I'm listening to all of your considered points.

I am sorry if I was too sarcastic about multiculturalism. One of the best things about living in Toronto is that I've met so many people from so many different places. And it works, for the most part. When I lived in Calgary, it was pretty 'white'. Moving to Toronto really opened my eyes. I can't tell you how many Muslims I met, early on, that were afraid of Jews. I worked as a prep cook at a restaurant, and most of the guys were Sri Lankan, and a few of them kept asking me if they were to be treated by a Jewish Doctor in a Toronto hospital, would the Doctor try to kill them? They really believed this. They made a big thing about my religion, I was singled out, and faced a fair bit of discrimination. The Assistant chef would play games and refuse to give me my paycheque, he'd make me wait for an hour or so before giving me my cheque, on my day off. Stupid things like that. I tried to be nice and not let it bother me. Most of the Muslims I've met here have been very nice. My wife tutors a really great kid, Habib, who really is working hard to become a social worker. I respect him immensely, and we talk about Judaism and Islam and he's so decent.

So I found Toronto to be alive with culture and religion and race, and it's an interesting city to live in. It's the more extreme things I find disturbing, that are related to more extreme expressions of Islam. We've had honor killings, and people are generally really afraid of Sharia law coming to pass here. Everyone should be allowed to be themselves, and I'm not advocating whatsoever that everyone has to assimilate and lose their identity. It just seems that political correctness goes too far sometimes, both here and elsewhere. The hypocrisy is too much sometimes. Some of the more extreme elements of Islam are making severe demands of our government, and yet a few of the more extreme elements show poor tolerance of others, both here, and in their original home countries.

Dave

The problem is not a Muslim or any deeply religious person who is nice or not nice, that is totally irrelevant. This person can be brainwashed and turned into a dangerous weapon for whatever reason because he/she is always prepared to sacrifice everything for his/her so-called god. 

Sorry Peter I'm not sure I understand. Some further explanation please.

What I meant is that a nice, decent, educated person can turn into a mass murderer easily because of his deep, mis-guided religious belief.

I thought that's what you meant.

I know some nice, decent educated Christians with what I regard as a deep, misguided religious belief but the last I looked they hadn't blown themselves and a load of other innocent people to kingdom come.

Not all religions are affected this way.

Not true, in recent history, recall what happened in Switzerland, USA, Japan and so on. They killed themselves,  murdered their followers, and others. 

'I know some nice, decent educated Christians with what I regard as a deep, misguided religious belief but the last I looked they hadn't blown themselves and a load of other innocent people to kingdom come'

The fact is the US armed services are riddled with Christian fundamentalists and some have said it is easier to get promoted if you are. They may not blow themselves up but it seems they have few qualms about blowing others up. The only difference is they don't do it up close and personal they do it from afar.

After the cold war ended the US was left without an enemy and one was badly needed for the US Industrial-military complex to carry on business as usual. There is plenty of evidense to suggest that 9/11 was, at least in part, an inside job. I'm not saying there is proof, I am saying there is evidense which is not quite the same thing. Evidense has to be tested in court and when it is proved a conviction can take place. If that really was OBL (which I doubt) and if he really was responsible for 9/11 (part responsible I mean) then we will never know for sure because he has never been convicted.  How convenient. In any event a fair trial would never have been possible. For me the guilt of George W Bush is way more clear but I doub't he will ever see the inside of a court either.

'@sniper - I choose to ignore your pathetic attempts at a wind-up, and I wish Hawk had as well'

Hook, Apart from the fact that is evident that you have not ignored my comments at all you have not offered any rebuttal. Explain to me how OBL managed to run his terrorist empire from a mountain cave with no phones, no internet, no postal service and no roads?

Sorry Peter that should obviously have read "Not all religions are affected this way to the same extent."

So the American Army is a Christian fundamentalist terrorist organisation and the CIA was responsible for 9/11? You're either a wind up merchant or a complete wacko. In either case I see no point in discussing this further.

Not for the first time I'll ask Paul when the ignore function is going to be reinstated.

As I sat watching 9/11 my second or third thought - and that of the friend I was watching with - was, "What the hell is Bush going to do now, given a perfect excuse like this?"

So I did some reading on right-wing American websites (not the out and out lunatic fringe - I mean those with articles by right of centre establishment figures) and found a couple of interesting things.

First there was a recognition of the importance of having an enemy as a rallying point for a sense of national unity and purpose.

I also found articles advocating forced regime change in Afghanistan and Iraq as being crucial to American interests. These pre-dated 9/11and I read them long before the actual invasions took place or were even mooted by the Bush administration.

I stop well short of suggesting 9/11was an inside job. Much has been made of the incredible complexity of the attacks, but in essence all the elements seem pretty simple to me, and I see no reason at all why they shouldn't have been carried out by the people who're supposed to have done so, who can reasonably be expected to be as smart and capable as anyone else. I don't see any reason for conspiracy theories. They made a clever plan, executed it well and got extremely lucky - from their point of view - with the results. 

Hi David -

I see it pretty much the same way as you.   I try not to be too naive when it comes to governments, security agencies, etc., but one has to be a pretty serious conspiracy nut to put W in the frame for 9/11.

Politically, I stand well left of center.   I wish that more multilateral effort went into rebalancing some of the grosser inequalities in the world.  For example, in my view, everyone deserves the right to a clean water supply and sanitation facilities.  Seems there are very few people who have tv sets, refrigerators and educational opportunities who all of a sudden get the bright idea to go blow themselves (and a bunch of innocent bystanders) up. 

Anyone with a brain has learned by now that the war in Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.  It was a war justified by lies about WMD's and, IMO, it will go down as one of the ugliest chapters in US history.  As far as I can tell, it was the first time the US attacked a country that had not first attacked us or one of our allies.  Saddam was a horrible dictator, but he was not the only one, and the cost of his overthrow cannot, IMO, be justified by the stable flow of Iraqi oil.

Afghanistan is much more difficult for me to get my mind around.   I hated seeing what the Taliban were doing to women and children.   The more barbaric aspects of their Sharia law (stonings, cutting off hands, etc.) sickened me.   And I got very frustrated by apologists using theories of "cultural relativism" in an attempt to justify its existence.   Also, there seemed to be an abundance of evidence that Al Qaeda operated freely within that country.   All that said, it seems stupid to have ignored the history of how so many great armies were defeated by that landscape.   And now, even after a decade, the Afghani government (if you can all it that) seem no closer to being able to provide for the basic needs (i.e., safety) of its people.  

Then there's the small issue of both Pakistan and India being nuclear-armed, with a nut job-led Iran close behind.   Not to mention the problem with Russia, China and others enabling Iran's nuclear efforts, and indirectly funding international terrorism.   Funny, at the same time, those countries are lending the US billions to go wage war against these same crazies.   What a deal.  What a world.   No wonder it spins off wackos.  And no wonder that one of them has found his way on to an audio foum.

Hook

Keep it clean please everybody.  I've already had to moderate a few posts here.  We all know what happens next.

I read through this last night and felt like posting what will follow but I also considered it might be very unpopular.

Seeing how the thread has gone, I think that my first thoughts last night should be presented. I have no interest in conspiracy theories, and the gap in moral sensibilities between liberal British thought and US government, who sanctioned questionable actions in this case, are considerable, and yet have not been discussed here as yet.

What worries me about the killing of Bin Laden [and it seems at least one other] is not quite so much that it happened but that it happened without due process. He should have been arrested and made subject to a fair trial, and if found guilty he should have been executed. 

In killing him and attempting to justify the action of killing him [unarmed apparently] with misinformation only later corrected, the US security services show that the US government is certainly arguably not better in its methods than Bin Laden. Lawless killing is lawless killing in any circumstances. Civilisation brings with it the requirement for due process of justice and a fully fair trial presenting the evidence in a Judicial setting. the evidence has to examined and tested on both sides.

Justice should not only be done, but be seen to be done. 

Dr Rowan Williams was correct to condemn the methods and justifications employed in my view.

ATB from George