Scotland leaving the Union

It's not being devious to play the system openly to your advantage. It's being smart and is certainly not a new idea. I'd bet every single PM has done it.

It's not within Salmond's power to call for a referendum. It has to be passed by parliament but as he's head of a minority government and the other parties have vowed to veto it he wouldn't win the vote. It suits him because for the time being he probably wouldn't win but with the polls suggesting a much increased SNP majority he's obviously doing something right in the eyes of the Scottish electorate.

And it will be up to him to decide when to call it. No ifs or buts, the timing will be of his choice and as far as I'm aware if he wins the UK government would have no say in it after that. Obviously it won't happen overnight but there would be no veto available. And why should there be?

And no Don that comment wasn't aimed at you. It was merely a general observation.

I think that is what I said.

Perhaps any referendum in Scotland would be on a regional basis? eg Lowlands; Highlands; Islands.

Those Regions that wish to remain part of the Union do so, those that don't, leave (and regroup as suits them).

Cheers

Don

Don

Now you are just being perverse.  It is the Treaty of Union that would have to be undone to allow two sovereign states to separate and has nothing to do with local regions.

Methinks your interest in northern matters is somewhat borne out of fear of losing the country that has so long propped up England

After all, I wopuld have thought you would have been glad to be shot of the northern hangers-on that so do no nothing but accept handouts from glorious England

Cheers

Jim

Jim

Not being perverse at all. Scots are not unanimous in their view on separation or union. Neither are the English, Welsh, Irish. I am merely exploring options that might be more attractive to a wider population. Change doesn't have to follow pre-prescribed limitations.

As soon as the options are slightly more involved than a simple yes/no, i've noticed people start to wriggle.

I haven't expressed any view as to whom is subsidising whom, other than my gut-feeling that the Union is stronger than the sum of its parts (as I indicated earlier). However, I do detect a sense of selfishness in all those who consider Scotland is subsidising the Union and therefore want to separate.

Cheers

Don

Sorry Don, merely responding to some of the little Englander nonsense that appears here now and again. Not from you I hasten to add although I think you're being a bit mischievous with your "alternative" proposals.

Prime motivation for any separation is to get control of our own affairs. Simple as that.

Tom, with respect, what are you on about? Is Tony on another forum? or are you in direct contact with Tony Blair (who ISTR arranged for devolution). Or is Tony just a typo

Cheers

Don

Sorry Don, got distracted as I was doing the last post and it's now corrected.

Now this is weird. I edited my last post and your post is now marked as being edited but mine isn't.

ah! the dreaded typo, no problem, we all suffer from time to time.

Yes, this business of "marked as edited" seems inconsistent to me

Cheers

Don

So the SNP did very well.

Is a referendum now on the cards.

Will Scotland adopt the EURO?

Interesting times.

David

David

SNP did amazingly well - much better than anyone expected.  Labour and the Lib Dems imploded pretty spectacularly.

A referendum is on the cards at some point during the next term but the outcome of that is far from a foregone conclusion.  What is clearer is that the Westminster will come under huge pressure WRT to the Scotland Act to give Scotland more autonomy WRT tax raising powers etc.  In any words greater devolution.

Scotland cannot adopt the Euro as part of the UK.

This may be a watershed in Scottish politics.

Jim

There were more than a few shocked faces on TV last night. The Lib Dems were punished for having Nick Clegg as their leader, Labour for their arrogance, complacency and negativity.

Predictions are that the referendum will be held late in the term. I agree Jim that the result is far from a foregone conclusion although Alex Salmond must take heart from such a massive victory.

It's undoubtedly a watershed in Scottish politics. A once in a century event according to one of the leading pundits.

What does all this mean.  if Scotland leaves...nay breaks the union, then surely the term British will no longer apply.  Not that I ever considered the word British to be a nationality,merely an umbrella term for the lot of us including large parts of the world.

Does this mean an Englishman at last will be able to apply for a passport and call himself English.  Whilst this seems a novel thing to do,the Scots need to think carefully.

What about the Welsh and Northern Irish, how would they survive,not least our friends from India,Pakistan,Africa and the West Indies, who all of a sudden would find that they are not British anymore as the term would be defunct.

They could not really call themselves English.

So, looking at the (now) usual sea of blue across much of England, but with a distinctly citrus hue over the rest of the UK, should the Tories re-name themselves the English National Party then?

Then press for the expulsion of Scotland from The Union.

And Cornwall.

And Gateshead.

And Wee Minnie McGregors Shortbread Shop in Cheam.

Staffy

Scotland has not voted for separation.  What we (as a nation) have voted for is for a party that has committed during the term of the next five years to hold a referendum on whether the Scottish people want to take the next step to full independence.  I don't believe however that was the main reason for such an unexpected and total victory for the SNP.

The Scottish Labour Party, led by Ian Gray who (IMO) has the charisma of a dead haddock, was moribund and totally misjudged the mood of the people north of the border.  The LibDems (no idea who their Scottish Leader is) imploded as they did elsewhere in the UK while the Tories (led by the very able Annablle Goldie) held their own in their natural heartland in the Borders.  The SNP are led by a very, very smart politician (love him or loathe him he is a smart politician) in Alex Salmond who got the tone just right.  The SNP has made some big promises but now they have to live up to them of course.

This is not an anti-English or anti anything vote.  It's a vote for a Scotland that wants the right to greater self determination, the right to decide it's own destiny be that as part of the Union or be that as a separate nation state.

I am actually quite proud of what this country did yesterday when it voted.  I'm not an ardent separatist by any means but I am a passionate Scot and I see yesterdays vote as a vote for Scottish self confidence, a confidence that has been missing for many years with the run down of our great industries such as shipbuilding and mining.  There is a feeling of national pride that has not been present for a long time.

Interesting times ahead.

Regards

Jim

Living in East Anglia i wonder whether we can devolve and revert to the German heritage. We could even reintroduce the Indigenous language Of Saxony. Then adopt the Deutsche Mark.

Mind you living in England it would be nice for us to have the same opportunities for self rule as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland enjoy.

So it will be interesting to see what happens over the next 12 months.

Lib Dems and Labour trashed and Conservatives still border line irrelevant but not damaged.

These are indeed interesting times.

Time to get out the photo of my Brother and I in our Kilts in Edinburgh 1965.

David

As Jim says, the SNP might not have won an election on the basis of a potential referendum on independence. A recent (straw?) poll indicated 33% for independence and 66% against. Of course, things can change rapidly. And independence and separation are not one and the same thing.

Salmond had previously promised a referendum during his first term as First Minister. However, as with many a politician, such a promise was hollow. Despite any new promise, he will only seek a referendum if he judges he would win the referendum. Such are politicians - devious IMHO although some might claim very, very, smart.

Cheers

Don

As someone who put my nationality on the Census as British Subject rather than English [I am a Unionist], I sincerely hope that the Scottish don't go for independence, though if they do then I suppose it should happen.

It seems to me that we ought to be able to get along fine without building more barriers, though I believe that a certain degree of devolution is beneficial. I am sure that we have yet to find the best balance, but in the strangely British way of evolving the constitution so that it works well enough, no doubt time will see this aspect refined.

As for an English Parliament, I think another layer of politicians is plain silly as a concept. If anything, what ought to happen is that certain legislation pertaining only to England might well be subject to an agreement for abstention by Westminster MPs from constituencies outside England. That is not something that should be regarded as divisive.

Myself, I am all for reducing the number of Westminster MPs [and paying them a better salary so fewer were paid as much in total and each were paid that bit more] to perhaps 600 or perhaps even fewer. But adding another level of English Parliamentarians does seem a move in the wrong direction to me, especially as they would be economically a dead weight, paid for by every tax-payer, corporate or private.

One of the reasons that the Conservatives have not been wrecked in the [4th May 2011] election is that many are not upset to see the balance of the economy move from more than half of all money earned taken by the Treasury and spent on our behalves. In my view the Treasury must find a way to reduce its tax take to something between a third and two fifths, rather than a half. The Liberals have been hammered because they have enabled this crucial trimming to start even if many of their supporters are not happy to see the state's spending shrink in this way, or actually expected their MPs to enable it by partaking in a co-allition with the Conservatives.

If we could bring the tax take back, then it would as economically as sensible to manufacture goods in Britain as Poland for example, as it once was.

ATB from George

Don I'd really love to see your sources for some of these things Salmond is supposed to have said or done. As head of a minority government it was never within his power to promise this as the opposition was uniformly against a referendum. In this situation it was impossible. It was never going to happen.

Now he has an overall majority (all the more remarkable as the voting system was designed to make it almost impossible for this to happen) he has already stated there will be referendum in the second half of the term.

And of course he'll choose when it suits him best. He'd be a fool to do otherwise. I don't know why you think this is being devious.

Some Unionists may be determined to hang onto Scotland, but I am sure that there are many who would hope that Scotland wants to stay in the Union as a result of her own free will.

If the Scotland decides to leave the Union, then I believe that it would be correct to respect the wish, and not block it by whatever method might be found.

Times change, and perhaps like the separation of Slovakia and the Czech Republic, it approaching the right time that Scotland and England with Wales should formally become separate nations. I doubt if Welsh independence is on the cards so soon, but time may tell on this as well.

If Scotland leaves the Union, then in England and Wales we are presented with a new situation, as the north-south divide would become all the more stark. England is very wealthy in the South-east, and much less so over the much larger rest of the area of England and Wales.

This is certainly going to become a wide debate over the coming term of the Scottish Parliament. Whatever comes out, I personally wish the Scottish people the best of futures, either in the Union or outside it.

ATB from George

If Scotland wants to leave the union, fine, that's its prerogative.  But if they ever do I'll cancel my Direct Debit to the Edinburgh University fund (my old Alma Mater).  After all, why should I subsidise a foreign country?

You do already.

Jim

Tom,

I'm astonished that you aren't aware of these things. I have no intention of dragging the internet or BBC files or whatever to capture "references" everytime I post a viewpoint or get asked to "verify" a statement.

But, just out of self-assurance that despite old-age creeping on I'm not going senile, I had a quick google under "alex salmond". Quite a few references came up refering to commitments to a referendum during 2010.

Without wishing to nit-pick, its my recollection, and i'm pretty certain of my recollection, that Mr Salmond and the SNP gave a committment to a referendum during Alex's first term as First Minister.

This won't be the first time, or the last, that a polititian has committed himself, then failed to deliver. So don't worry, Salmond is in good company in this respect.

Cheers

Don

Yeah our friends in Pakistan getting 600 million. And to think they can only afford to spend 1.6 billion on arms from China.

Mind you what will Scotland do for a defence force, curency, border controls etc etc.

Scotland is unique in the UK in that it has only two major cities, Glasgow and Edinburgh. Also a large part of the country is very isolated especially the islands.

So England has the Isle of Wight and Wales has Anglesy, Scotland has hundreds of small island communities some of which are very isolated indeed.

Will Hadrians Wall be restored and reinstated as a border?

I still do not feel that Scotland is able to afford to become a Sovereign Nation.

As an aside that great Political Commentator, Jeremy Clarkson,  was quite amusing in the Sun today regarding Scotland. Remember it is tongue firmly in cheek.

David

David,

Independence isn't the same as separation.

Independence will need a carefully drawn up agreememnt on such matters as defence, energy, water and a host of other things.

I personally don't see any difference between Scotland seeking independence or "Cornwall" seeking independence in principle, (and I'm not in favour of either), but appreciate that in this thread at least, i'm probably in a minority, and recognise that a lot of Scots and quite a few "Cornishmen" wouldn't share my views.

Cheers

Don

Don,

The manifesto  pledge was obviously made before the election when certain assumptions had to be made. Once back in the real world it was not possible for him to deliver a referendum. The opposition made it clear, quite naively in my opinion that they would oppose it no matter what. Whether it would have happened who knows but the fact is that he didn't just decide to break the "promise" of the manifesto. It couldn't have happened. Hardly a broken promise.

However, back to the present. He now has an overall majority and has committed to a referendum in the second half of this parliamentary term. If it doesn't happen then you can rightly say he's broken his promise.