Tidal next week..
Posted by: Fueller on 29 September 2015
So Tidal has now been announced for Naim Streamers / Muso to the delight of many here I'm sure.
This wasn't a necessity for me but I'd be silly not to take advantage of the 3 month free trial and potentially cancel the spotify sub.
Thoughts?
Chris
Another vote for Deezer Elite. My experience of the past several months mirrors that of Graham MacArthur above (via Sonos). I have tried Spotify and Qobuz on a couple of occasions and cancelled the contracts. DE however has ticked all the boxes for me (I have a non-classical bias) for all the reasons given above. I am happily signed up with DE until the end of May 2016. 35+ million tracks and counting.
I'm not so sure that a niche streaming service cannot survive, even though it may still be an economy of scale. I've always felt that in business generally, a key decision is, do you have a broad offering and cater for a mass market and wide demographic well, or a more focused offering and cater for a niche really really really well? Either can be very profitable, and I say this not without experience on quite a large scale.
It seems to me that Qobuz is catering for a niche market, i.e music enthusiasts. The thought also occurs that said enthusiasts are the most likely to pay for a streaming service, spend money on high-end audio equipment, and therefore more likely to pay the premium for lossless streaming.
Unless the record companies change their approach this is wholly unrealistic. They own the product and appear to be taking a very short term approach of charging as much as they can for it now rather than fostering a healthy eco system of streaming providers.
Qobuz's founder has now used his own money twice to keep the business going. There is a reason he's struggling to get external investors. The record companies are charging unsustainable amounts of money for their product and Qobuz doesn't have a growth story to tell in the way Deezer or Spotify do.
The previous rule of thumb when investing in streaming businesses was you needed 15 million subscribers to break even with a 70 per cent royalty cost. It turns out the 70 per cent number is wrong. Spotify paid 81 per cent last year and Deezer 84 per cent. It was thought that Spotify turned a corner in 2013 but now even with 15 million paying subscribers it's cost are rising faster than it's revenue and is even further away from breaking even.
The new estimate is now 30m subscribers. If you believe there is a world wide pot of 41 million people willing to pay for streaming it may be unsustainable for even Spotify to turn a profit.
To some extent Netflix faced this problem with the movie studios, which is why it started producing it's own product. If you own the content you have a better chance of breaking even or turning a profit. This is not a realistic option for streaming music companies.
Indeed, and just proves that the record companies have learned absolutely nothing since the rise of bit torrent sites and having their products fleeced by the many. They are only going to keep fuelling this type of thing through their own greed which is a really sad state of affairs
I still think, long term, it's viable to be niche, even though it may be that Qobuz is long gone before someone does it correctly.
Also, even within the record industry, at some point common sense will prevail. If a huge number of your potential customers want to buy your product via a particular route, you have to adapt to that, and find ways to make it profitable. Or go out of business. Simple as that.
Is the Hdx and NS01 getting the update
No
Too bad 
Agreed. Naim states the reason as their being server products, ignoring their player/streamer capabilities.
Yaman
My question is, is it easy to do the update?
Yes - just take care to read, understand & follow the instructions - zimples
You might need to buy a USB-Mini USB cable if you don't already have one - they come free with most camera's - plug it in between laptop & the socket in the back of your Naim
Also good to have an ethernet between laptop & Naim (or your LAN) & don't trust wireless
Can any IT guy explain why I'll have to either use a laptop or remove the device from the rack, look for a lead that I may or may not have, to flash the firmware on a £3000 bit of current kit? Tell me it's not to do with SQ!
I'm not so sure that a niche streaming service cannot survive, even though it may still be an economy of scale. I've always felt that in business generally, a key decision is, do you have a broad offering and cater for a mass market and wide demographic well, or a more focused offering and cater for a niche really really really well? Either can be very profitable, and I say this not without experience on quite a large scale.
It seems to me that Qobuz is catering for a niche market, i.e music enthusiasts. The thought also occurs that said enthusiasts are the most likely to pay for a streaming service, spend money on high-end audio equipment, and therefore more likely to pay the premium for lossless streaming.
One only has to look at Qobuz website to get a feel for who their target audience is, and furthermore, one only has to look at the top 10 albums downloaded or streamed to realise that their customer base marries up to said target.
Tidal seems more about attracting as many consumers as possible, however unsuccessfully, but with no real focus, or at least no focus that really benefits the consumer. They have some exclusives, but that doesn't benefit me as a consumer, overall I prefer a rival product by far, so tough luck, Prince; there's plenty else to listen to.
Depends on your personal listening preferences of course. With Qobuz there is a lack of Genre category relating to 'Rock', 'Metal' or 'Dance', which can be found on Tidal. Qobuz is quite esoteric in its catalogue, fine for some but probably not for so many. Tidal is the way to go for many and a good start for Naim streamer people. If Tidal were to go bust, what is the likelihood of Apple Corp. stepping in to 'acquire' the brand? It could be a way for Apple Music to go lossless.
My question is, is it easy to do the update?
Yes - just take care to read, understand & follow the instructions - zimples
You might need to buy a USB-Mini USB cable if you don't already have one - they come free with most camera's - plug it in between laptop & the socket in the back of your Naim
Also good to have an ethernet between laptop & Naim (or your LAN) & don't trust wireless
Can any IT guy explain why I'll have to either use a laptop or remove the device from the rack, look for a lead that I may or may not have, to flash the firmware on a £3000 bit of current kit? Tell me it's not to do with SQ!
If you have a search on the forum you will see plenty of discussion on this. And yes there is a point of view (though I'm not sufficiently technically literate to know whether it's a valid point) that says the way Naim have designed their products to maximise SQ precludes an update process straight from the internet.
Bottom line is it is what it is, and you think that is unacceptable in a £3k product then you don't have much choice other than to sell it and buy something that does updates in a way you are prepared to live with.
If you have not got access to a laptop then I agree it's a complete PITA, but if you do then spending 30 mins on an update every 6 months or so does not seem such a big deal to me.
David
My question is, is it easy to do the update?
Yes - just take care to read, understand & follow the instructions - zimples
You might need to buy a USB-Mini USB cable if you don't already have one - they come free with most camera's - plug it in between laptop & the socket in the back of your Naim
Also good to have an ethernet between laptop & Naim (or your LAN) & don't trust wireless
Can any IT guy explain why I'll have to either use a laptop or remove the device from the rack, look for a lead that I may or may not have, to flash the firmware on a £3000 bit of current kit? Tell me it's not to do with SQ!
I presume you feel that this process should be completed via wireless communication. All very convenient, but probably dangerous; I very much suspect that the firmware updates don't like being interrupted, and that such an event could actually render the unit unusable, hence the wires.
I should point out though, this a best guess I do not know for sure.
Biggest surprise for me was discovering that fimware updates for the DAC-V1 are supplied as WAV files, which you play to it via a chosen bit-perfect audio app. Didn't expect that. I've never tried it though, and you still need wires and a computer of some description.
I have not updated my NDS since version 3.22. Will I be able simply to install update 4.4 and be fully up to date or will I need to go sequentially through all the updates?
BTW I'm not too confident about it since the only laptop PC I have runs Vista and is painfully slow!
Hi Clive, yes you can go straight to 4.4.
Slow is OK, its just an extra coffee
Or if you are really uncertain, do you have a dealer or someone with a faster PC, I would be happy to do it for you if you get stuck, I have done a disabled buddies a few times. We are just next door counties
Thanks for the answer and your kind offer, Mike. Hopefully I'll just have the courage to go for it this time. I even bought a 5m Ethernet cable to enable it to be hardwired to the network switch (in the next room), so I am prepared. If it all goes pear shaped I will probably take it into Audience in Bath.
My question is, is it easy to do the update?
Yes - just take care to read, understand & follow the instructions - zimples
You might need to buy a USB-Mini USB cable if you don't already have one - they come free with most camera's - plug it in between laptop & the socket in the back of your Naim
Also good to have an ethernet between laptop & Naim (or your LAN) & don't trust wireless
Can any IT guy explain why I'll have to either use a laptop or remove the device from the rack, look for a lead that I may or may not have, to flash the firmware on a £3000 bit of current kit? Tell me it's not to do with SQ!
If you have a search on the forum you will see plenty of discussion on this. And yes there is a point of view (though I'm not sufficiently technically literate to know whether it's a valid point) that says the way Naim have designed their products to maximise SQ precludes an update process straight from the internet.
Bottom line is it is what it is, and you think that is unacceptable in a £3k product then you don't have much choice other than to sell it and buy something that does updates in a way you are prepared to live with.
If you have not got access to a laptop then I agree it's a complete PITA, but if you do then spending 30 mins on an update every 6 months or so does not seem such a big deal to me.
David
If only "buy something else" were the answer to everything in life.
Spent plenty of time and effort over the years on my Hi-Fi, e.g. putting my LP12 on bricks to change the springs, changing the oil in the bearing housing and asking Linn how many drops.
Somehow, it seems unlikely there isn't an easier way of updating my streamer, perhaps too much is done in-house.
Marc
OK no probs ..... hope it goes as smoothly as have all my many (beta) updates.
It's at least great that something is coming with Naim now. I would have hoped that it would have been Qobuz as I am already having a subscription with all kind of other benefits. Including real high resolution streaming.
I will test Tidal and see how much I will use it, or not. All depends for me to what extend they have new content which I would like to try out before buying it.
Exactly my Point of view!
I've been in the beta team as well and I think Naim has done a great job. Some would prefer Qobuz, but I'm convinced that will be the next step. For now I'm very happy with the Tidal.
Fred
......... The thing is, Tidal sounds worse (to me) than my server playing cd quality music, assuming that is that you can find stuff you want to listen to, which has been something of a struggle. It's fine if you like pop and rock, but try and find the latest classical or jazz releases, or anything on ECM....
Will be interested to see what you guys make of Tidal when it comes through. Simaudio have also just recently integrated Tidal into the MiND streamer and I have registered for the free trial of the £19.99 "HiFi" service (only the standard 30 days in our case) but I would agree with Hungryhalibut that (to my ears) much of the stuff I have listened to in the last few days has not sounded as good as streaming the CDs ripped to my NAS. A lot of it sounds quite veiled / restrained / bass bloom, etc. Not sure what Tidal are using as their source material in these cases.
I'm certainly interested in trying Tidal out with the 3 month trial. I'll see how it goes but currently I'll probably renew my Spotify subscription when the Tidal trial ends. My kids exclusively use Spotify - I tend to play things from my library.
My rationale is thus: I expect the best quality to be when I stream my own CD (FLAC) collection. I'll put the £120 annual saving (Spotify over Tidal) into 20 new CDs that I can keep forever even when my music streaming subscription runs out.
If I don't buy the CDs then I carry all the liability if my preferred music streaming provider ceases.
On gapless: I had tried out and rejected Tidal about a year ago (using my Airport express to NDX as means of listening) with" lack of gapless playback" being one of the reasons. Funny enough after a couple of months of beta testing with NAIM integration I have not come across any ugly "gap", seems to me Tidal is -at least partially- already implementing gapless...
Tidal does have a few IT technical issues, but I am sure it will resolve them in due course. I find the music range quite good, not as good generally as Qobuz for lossless tracks (apart from Rap which it seems to have a huge amount of content on).. but I do like the Tidal playlists - that occur for all genres, I also like the Tidal radio feature -- you select a track and then you get similar sounding tracks to play after it... nice.
Sound quality - i share observations that Tidal lacks the feel and quality of a CD or a CD rip streamed locally.. its not bad though - and SQ does seem to vary possibly on how busy the Tidal servers are and the data throughput. Gapless on Tidal seems to be largely determined by the performance of the media servers, if you get directed to a slower or busy media server your gaps will be longer... its a bit pot luck
With all the emphasis naim place on 'sound quality first' I'm surprised at some of the less than complimentary remarks in that regard. Was this a genuinely known issue through Beta? If not, was it not picked up? If so, why are naim settling for second best?
Qobuz has always been my favourite from an sq and library perspective and I hope, if the Tidal sq issues are genuine, that it is merely a stepping stone to a better quality provider.
G
- Again Qobuz is not available in Everly country - Poland for example. I'd love to purchase HiRes files there but I simply can not.
With all the emphasis naim place on 'sound quality first' I'm surprised at some of the less than complimentary remarks in that regard. Was this a genuinely known issue through Beta? If not, was it not picked up? If so, why are naim settling for second best?
I don't think any streaming service is bettering CD level SQ or 16/44 CD rips or 16/44 downloads. Yes we found some problems, but Tidal, like all the streamers have operating system problems. I've found the same with with Qobuz, the least affected I've found is Deezer via Sonos, but even they have temporary drop out & app display issues, but its at the providers end, not Sonos (or Naim). Its the same with Linn & Cyrus, go read their forums.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that streaming is currently bettering CD or whatever - merely that when done properly it can pretty much equal it - given that it's the same bitrate. But the potential exists to stream at better than CD resolution, and I suspect that's not so far away.
The Tidal radio feature would be great if it was like Pandora, but is it? The radio feature does not appear to be offered on Sonos. Using other sources (computer Tidal desktop app or Roon), I can stream a variety of music, but only from my musical library rather than Tidal's vast music collection! Have I overlooked something?
With all the emphasis naim place on 'sound quality first' I'm surprised at some of the less than complimentary remarks in that regard. Was this a genuinely known issue through Beta? If not, was it not picked up? If so, why are naim settling for second best?
I don't think any streaming service is bettering CD level SQ or 16/44 CD rips or 16/44 downloads. Yes we found some problems, but Tidal, like all the streamers have operating system problems. I've found the same with with Qobuz, the least affected I've found is Deezer via Sonos, but even they have temporary drop out & app display issues, but its at the providers end, not Sonos (or Naim). Its the same with Linn & Cyrus, go read their forums.
I'm not inferring 'bettering CD' and I understand occasionally drop-outs and app glitches happen. What is being reported is a fundamental sq issue - '...it's not bad though' and '...sounds quite veiled...' are concerning observations.
Guess it is a 'suck it and see' moment.
G
Does anyone know what time the updates happen, here in Sydney I'd like to be up and running before my bedtime, midnight here and 1pm UK time.
The naim app update (for apple ipad) is available now but don't know about the firmware update.
Thanks, The app updated automatically yesterday, now for our friends
in Salisbury to bet out of bed and give us the firmware. I've been using TIDAL for some months now and sending it through apple TV, it sound great but I would think this update will be a lot better, can't wait.