NAP 250DR - Again

The 250 sounds slow only with a 202 (to my ears)

Simon - interesting.   I never really thought the previous 250 fun with the 282 - quite rich and dark - I would have said the old 200 was more fun - perhaps?   The 250 DR certainly grooves with a 282/HC but last night we were listening to Paul Simon (vinyl) and my wife remarked (unprompted) that she'd "never heard a music system sound so right".

But as I so often say it's all good.

Indeed Strat, my opinion matches yours regarding 282/250.2... is rich and especially dark, with a slight over-emphasised lower frequencies, mainly the midbass... actually this over-emphasised midbass seemed to me the treat of the old 250.2. the new one, 250DR, seems that has got rid of this colouration.

I got to hear a side by side demo of a 250.2 and 250DR last night.

The DR'ed amp was certainly more delicate and resolving. Gone was the low-mid warmth(?) of the 250.2.

But even though it was only a brief comparison, I felt I might miss the sledgehammer presentation of the old 250.2. Instead of DR'ing my 250, I'm possibly leaning towards replacing the XLR/DIN with the Lumina version, a cable that really sung with me (bloody expensive though).

James, interesting.. you are not first I have heard saying the 250.2 to 250 DR is not a no brainier upgrade... I will certainly audition the DR upgrade but am prepared that it might not be for me. Out of interest what is the price of the tiny XLR to DIN lead?

BTW I don't know what this so called mid bass colouration is with the 250.2, certainly not evident on my 2014 model.. perhaps a trait on earlier versions?, for me moving from a HiCapDR from older HiCap on my 282 got rid of the extra mid bass warmth .. it was nought to do with 250.2 - and I have driven the 250.2 with Naim and non Naim preamps.

Simon

I know exactly what is meant by the mid bass warmth, or hump as I think of it. I owned a 250.2 in the past, changing to it from an olive 250. I really didn't like the slightly lumpen sound I was getting on the end of my 252 to swapped it for a 300, which was much faster sounding and lacked the hump. The 250DR is much more like the old 300 to my tired old ears, and all the better for it. I'd be surprised if there are some who prefer the 250.2. As well as the more balanced sound, the new amp has a wonderful see through character that let's you engage with the music so much more. 

Still not convinced this comes from the 250.2. I never found a hump but did find putting the SCDR on the 282 specifically improved the clarity and speed of the lower half of the spectrum. To me this says that the 250.2 is very sensitive to the preamp that feeds it. But either way, no hump.

Indeed I am not convinced its from the 250.2 either - in my experiences over the years the mid bass hump has come from non DR PSUs feeding the NACs.

Certainly no mid bass hump here on this 250.2 or with my previous 200 or listened to 300. However I am using a SCDR with my 252, and a HiCapDR on my 282 before that.

The 250.2 is a fast powerful and agile sounding amp with the 252 - certainly coupled with the ATC SCM speakers - perhaps a great synergy. The ATCs are renown for being ruthless at showing shortcomings in the electronics elsewhere

Simon

it will yield a difference - but might not be significantly or even at all preferable. The non DR SC seemed to be a big upgrade over the non DR Hicap on the 282 - but with DR I actually found myself ambivalent and possibly almost preferred the HiCapDR over the SCDR on the 282 in terms of musicality.

So if you are planning on getting a (used) 252 then by all means get the SCDR, if not - I would tread carefully and certainly try and audition - not always that easy with used equipment I know..

Simon

I am quite familiar with what is mid bass hump sound like... in fact my ears are quite sensitive to this hump as I have experienced it before when Flatcap XS was added to the Nait XS. On a speaker which is built around the mid-range can let one hear clearly the mid band hump as opposed to a more thin sounding speaker. Even there are reports from Pink Fish Audio forum showing HiCap 2 or first gen HiCap adding this flavour to the sound which is very unnatural. They suspect Naim purposely bump this frequency range just to make the sound more exciting. However, since the development of the DR version this effect has diminished significantly. I reckon since I have my HiCap DR there is no mid bass hump that my ears can detect and certainly the DR thing has brought great benefits to my system sound. 

Re-read Hungryhalibut's post, I am quite convinced he was using older Hi-Cap (without DR) on the pre-amp and that lead him to perceive Nap250.2 has this mid bass boost. If I recalled, naim third party PSU manufacturer which is prohibited to mention here - admitted the DR PSU has smoothen the mid frequency range. As current owner of 282/HCDR/250.2, I can assure you that there is no mid bass emphasis albeit slightly leaning towards a warmer side.  

You may well be convinced, but I was using a supercap. The mid bass boost is part of the 250.2 design, and nothing to do with hicaps, super caps or anything else. 

HH, I think the design of the 250.2 must have changed from the earlier models then.. It's just not there in the recent models I have listened to including my own..in fact the 250.2 (at least now) is notable to me for its flat even  uncoloured response across the audio band with no dips that I can hear (or humps).. it truly is an iconic design...and the standard discrete regulation of the 250.2 must go along way to achieving that. I would find a mid bass hump most objectionable.. I am a bit of a fussy so and so.

Simon

Ok, it is Supercap but I believe is not DR version. As few have discovered including myself, naim older PSUs (prior DR) are capable to exhibit the similar traits, ie mid band emphasis to give an illusion of more exciting sound. You owe it to yourself to try either SCDR or HCDR before confirming that it is part of 250.2 design. If an audio company wish to tweak the frequency range, it is more feasible to start from the pre-amp stage or in Naim's case PSU as it is part of pre-amp component. Can we design a power amp to boost certain range of the audio band, maybe it is possible but I have doubts. TBH, the mid-bass emphasis has become intolerable to my ears so much so that I got rid of it and bought a third party PSU. For illustration, one can clearly hear particularly when a percussion instrument like drums when striking, the sound from the vibration of the membrane become much more heavier than usual as if it is a bass instrument. I hope some do not confuse with lower bass, we want to hear the mid band. But ever since I bought the HCDR, this traits is no longer there, the various drums hitting sound can be clearly distinguished.

I am not an expert but can a power supply (be it DR or non DR) really be used to modify a frequency emphasis? Even if it can, would this task be more effectively carried out by a pre amp rather than a power supply or power amp for that matter.

Sorry I don't see how a SC on the 252 preamp could affect how a power amp sounds? I've listened to five different power amps with a non-DR 252/SC. Out of these, NAP 250 was the only one which introduced that obvious bass hump.

Could the bass hump be related to the choice of speakers? I compared the 250 against other amps with the dealer's Akurate 242 speakers: No bass hump wth a Linn power amp or a NAP 300. 

Not sure.. Certainly doesn't happen with non Naim preamplifters, but on Naim preamps using older non DR PSUs I certainly have noticed a mid bass warmth when the pre is connected to various amplifiers including 200, 250 and 300 and some of the Naits.

I guess some would like this mid bass warmth, it seems to accentuate pace and rhythm..I personally find it distracting and after a while it irritates... It put me off Naim amps for quite a while.. until the DR NACs came along.

Simon

take into account that, from what i know and believe, the older Naim equipment was designed and constructed with psychoacoustics studies.

meaning, the purpose was that the sound to be pleasing in many ways... of course, that PRaT we know as Naim's trademark, or let's put it simple, the joy of playing music, all that for foreseen, and form followed function, so Naim designed all it's gear with making paramaount certain aspects of sound and rather ignoring others...

the latest generations, tend to improve the aspects left unresolved by older generations. it is still not a dramatic change, but sensitive nevertheless...

and while i will never expect Naim to have the dynamics or resolution of Simaudio or Audio Research gear, for example, i'm expecting further improvements in those fields for the future generations, and, slowly, ditching the other area that Naim of old cosolidated so well - making many products to go in parallel for the same purpose (for example: unitiserve, NDX, ndac, 555ps - 4 items to go as just a source or 282 with napsc, and 2 hicaps... again 4 items for just a preamp)...

while entertaining for those who look for constant change to their setup, i consider this last part some kind of tricking the customer...

instead of designing so many upgrades for one piece, just do it right in the first place!

lately, we have seen some very good products of Naim that do not suport further upgrade with adding extra components, and the 172 streamer is one good example.

coming back to our subject: do certain Naim components introduce some deliberately induced psychoacoustic effects just to make the possible buyer make his mind faster?

i believe yes! most of the PSUs i tried, introduced some slight changes, but i couldn't really tell that those chages were actually a step up, and by all means, definately not as some here on the forum sworn, that by adding X PSU, the sound improved dramatically etc...

i take those remarks with the usual pinch of salt... dramatic improvement usually means you cannot go back at all at the setup before the change... i was always dissapointed to see that the so called "dramatic" upgrades with extra PSUs, in Naim's range were rather a smart marketing trick, than actually better technology and engineering...

the thing is, we pay a lot less for engineering those days, and a LOT, a lot more, for marketing, and Naim is no exception!

yes i like Naim gear, but i don not buy every goo-goo bullsh..it that Naim marketing sells... they are in the business of making money, if they don't make it, they will dissapear, so it's obvious that for survival and profit, all means have to be used. and marketing is the most powerfull toll nowadays...