Naim Audio Forum Archive

Posted on: 04 October 2015 by PBenny1066

For what it's worth, my own experiences....

Have been using a SN 1 and HiCap For the vast 4 years and absolutely love it. As somebody else said, at 12 o'clock it is like being in a nightclub, and probably way louder than is healthy. This into ProAc D28s which are only average efficiency (87dbW), and in a room roughly 7m by 10m.....

Mostly the volume knob doesn't go beyond 9 o'clock.

Paul

Posted on: 04 October 2015 by Mayor West

Originally Posted by SongStream:

Originally Posted by Mayor West:

Its always amusing to see the surprise when you quote 80wpc to less enlightened friends who are expecting output power in the thousands.

Indeed, after which one has to decide whether to attempt an explanation, or just let them think you're nuts. That is, unless you're in a position to demonstrate to them the effect. In my experience, demonstration has had a 100% success rate in settling any debate about whether it can sound good enough to be worth £3k, and whether 80W is LOUD enough.

Despite this even among my more like minded friends, I suspect the quoted output has led to a few misguided decisions. A friend of mine that has followed my lead in climbing the hifi ladder over the last twenty years, but not necessarily my advice, left my house with a serious case of upgraditis after hearing the SN2 for the first time. He decided that nearly his whole system had to go, but budget would not stretch to anything like a SN2. Being a real Naim fan now, I naturally recommended a second-hand Nait XS-2. This did get serious consideration, right up until he discovered the 60W per channel, which was less than his current Rotel amp.

In the end a Roksan Caspian m2 and a pair of PMC 21s were purchased. Not necessarily a bad choice by any means, but, and bearing in mind these were both un-auditioned and bought through auction, I do believe that the choice between one well regarded amplifier vs another, came down to simply which had the most power on paper, despite my efforts prevent that. As for the result, it sounds pretty good, and better than the previous set up, but I wonder how much closer to an SN2 the XS might have been (I've never acutally heard), and how much of the Naim sound that I've become familiar with could have been achieved. My friends system doesn't sound broken (glad I got that phrase in), but it does remind me how spoiled I am.

I agree, demonstration is the key!

Sounds like your friend missed a trick unfortunately! I'm sure the Rocksan/PMC sounds great however, but it is a shame if power output clouded his judgement. I loved my Nait XS (Nait XS-1 for clarification!), it is a wonderful amplifier. It was going to take a lot for it to be beaten, and fortunately the SN2 was able to do that. IMO, the SN2 retains much of what I loved about the Nait XS but I just feel that it is quite a bit 'better' in every department. I haven't had the pleasure of listening to a Nait XS-2 however.

Posted on: 04 October 2015 by analogmusic

measuring an amplifier by watts is like say a meal tastes better because it has more calories.

Naim just cannot be sold or evaluated by numbers or by some other numerical figure.

Naim is can only be sold and understood by demonstration, and people hopefully (if properly set up) understand the musicality of Naim.

80 Naim SN2 watts are more than enough. This is a consumer, domestic, amplifier after all, not a commercial one. I don't think Naim amps are supposed to be compatible with every single speaker out there. There are some pretty crap speakers made.

There are also some 1 ohm "amplifier killer" speakers.

Why bother with those? What a badly designed speaker.

If an amp can produce 100 DB of sound, that is enough to cause hearing damage over a period of time. So why is more than that needed?

Posted on: 04 October 2015 by b_lund

Originally Posted by analogmusic:

Naim is can only be sold and understood by demonstration, and people hopefully (if properly set up) understand the musicality of Naim.

Care to elaborate a bit on those comments?, not sure I understand exactly

Do you mean they should not be sold without demonstration or do you mean some people don't understand musicality ?

Posted on: 04 October 2015 by analogmusic

I mean that Naim kit cannot be sold by measurement of watts or power or transient output. NAP 250.2 has just a few watts more than NAP 200. But doesn't quite sound the same right? One amp is regulated (250.2), the other not (NAP 200)

I never even heard of the brand when I walked into a hi-fi showroom many years ago. They just played my songs with a 202/200 Naim and I was in musical heaven. Then they told me it was a Naim amp.

How can this be explained in words or numbers, it must be heard and experienced.

Now that my kit is set up properly and working fine (I had some NACA 5 soldering issues that prevented that last 10 % of musicality) I can now confidently ask any of my friends who doesn't own Naim or Linn to my home and without saying a word, just play their tunes and let Naim have the same effect on them.

Posted on: 04 October 2015 by badlands

Originally Posted by SongStream:

I've been running an SN2 for the around 6 months, having upgraded from a Cyrus 8vs, which itself had a modest 70 watts per channel. And a great little amp though the Cyurs is, and in a comparable price bracket to what you have now, but vs an SN2 in terms of power and authority in the delivery of music itself, well, you'd think the Cyrus only had 10 watts by comparison.

I had quite the opposite experience, When I went from a 200 to the 250.2, I couldn't believe the difference was only a rated 10 watts , as the 250 just had so much more authority, but when I downsized I purchased the Cyrus 8DAC, and I couldn't believe the power of this amp, It sounds much more authoritative than either the 150 or 200 I had and was not embarrassed by the 250-2. It definitely does not sound like a 10 watt amp by any stretch of the imagination! If it did then I would venture to guess there was something not right with your amp.

Of course I have the PSX-R power supply, that possibly could account for the difference. I honestly don't know if I would call the change from the Cyrus to the SN2 an upgrade. As the combination 8DAC and PSX-R is roughly the same cost as a SN2.

Posted on: 04 October 2015 by SongStream

Originally Posted by badlands:

Originally Posted by SongStream:

I've been running an SN2 for the around 6 months, having upgraded from a Cyrus 8vs, which itself had a modest 70 watts per channel. And a great little amp though the Cyurs is, and in a comparable price bracket to what you have now, but vs an SN2 in terms of power and authority in the delivery of music itself, well, you'd think the Cyrus only had 10 watts by comparison.

I had quite the opposite experience, When I went from a 200 to the 250.2, I couldn't believe the difference was only a rated 10 watts , as the 250 just had so much more authority, but when I downsized I purchased the Cyrus 8DAC, and I couldn't believe the power of this amp, It sounds much more authoritative than either the 150 or 200 I had and was not embarrassed by the 250-2. It definitely does not sound like a 10 watt amp by any stretch of the imagination! If it did then I would venture to guess there was something not right with your amp.

Of course I have the PSX-R power supply, that possibly could account for the difference. I honestly don't know if I would call the change from the Cyrus to the SN2 an upgrade. As the combination 8DAC and PSX-R is roughly the same cost as a SN2.

Yes, I wouldn't tale too literally the 10 watt thing, just trying to show how meaningless watts as quoted in brochures can be.

Your comments interest me, your chosen model is a much later version than mine, so that could make a lot of difference, but what is the source in your system. I ask because, I never felt the Cyrus amp was in lean when partnered with a CD8x, but with the DAC-V1, that was how I perceived it.

Posted on: 06 October 2015 by Boaz

This, for example, is one review that I have found on the net:

"I can’t speak to the Naim integrated, but I do note that your Bryston speakers are 88dB efficient, and the Naim only puts out 80Wpc into 8 ohms. While that is certainly enough for moderately loud playback, with certain rock and classical pieces, you might find the Naim running out of steam during the most dynamic passages. I have only briefly heard the Moon Evolution 600i, but Philip Beaudette has gone on record -- albeit five years ago -- saying, “If audio reproduction gets any better than this, I haven’t heard it.” I spent time with the Canadian company’s less expensive Moon Neo 340i and found it to be excellent, so I have little doubt that the 600i is a top-flight integrated.

Overall, I’d say that Hegel’s new H360 and the Simaudio should be at the top of your list. Insofar as sub-$10,000 class-AB integrated amps go, they are likely the cream of the crop. . . . Hans Wetzel

Posted on: 06 October 2015 by SongStream

Originally Posted by Boaz:

This, for example, is one review that I have found on the net:

"I can’t speak to the Naim integrated, but I do note that your Bryston speakers are 88dB efficient, and the Naim only puts out 80Wpc into 8 ohms. While that is certainly enough for moderately loud playback, with certain rock and classical pieces, you might find the Naim running out of steam during the most dynamic passages. I have only briefly heard the Moon Evolution 600i, but Philip Beaudette has gone on record -- albeit five years ago -- saying, “If audio reproduction gets any better than this, I haven’t heard it.” I spent time with the Canadian company’s less expensive Moon Neo 340i and found it to be excellent, so I have little doubt that the 600i is a top-flight integrated.

Overall, I’d say that Hegel’s new H360 and the Simaudio should be at the top of your list. Insofar as sub-$10,000 class-AB integrated amps go, they are likely the cream of the crop. . . . Hans Wetzel

To be concerned about the ability of an SN2 driving 88db sensitivity 8ohm speakers is without any doubt ludicrous. Not to say it will drive absolutely every speaker adequately by any means, but come on.

If you've got your heart set on the Hegal, and feel the need for raw power, I don't think the Naim forum is likely to talk you into it. If you need convincing and reassuring that is what you need, perhaps alternative forums will give the answer you want to hear.

Posted on: 06 October 2015 by Huge

Originally Posted by SongStream:

Originally Posted by Boaz:

This, for example, is one review that I have found on the net:

"I can’t speak to the Naim integrated, but I do note that your Bryston speakers are 88dB efficient, and the Naim only puts out 80Wpc into 8 ohms. While that is certainly enough for moderately loud playback, with certain rock and classical pieces, you might find the Naim running out of steam during the most dynamic passages. I have only briefly heard the Moon Evolution 600i, but Philip Beaudette has gone on record -- albeit five years ago -- saying, “If audio reproduction gets any better than this, I haven’t heard it.” I spent time with the Canadian company’s less expensive Moon Neo 340i and found it to be excellent, so I have little doubt that the 600i is a top-flight integrated.

Overall, I’d say that Hegel’s new H360 and the Simaudio should be at the top of your list. Insofar as sub-$10,000 class-AB integrated amps go, they are likely the cream of the crop. . . . Hans Wetzel

To be concerned about the ability of an SN2 driving 88db sensitivity 8ohm speakers is without any doubt ludicrous. Not to say it will drive absolutely every speaker adequately by any means, but come on.

If you've got your heart set on the Hegal, and feel the need for raw power, I don't think the Naim forum is likely to talk you into it. If you need convincing and reassuring that is what you need, perhaps alternative forums will give the answer you want to hear.

Originally Posted by Huge:

Power itself generally isn't the issue - to illustrate the point...

Using 8Ω speakers of slightly lowish sensitivity (say 87dB / 2.83V) then 50W will give about 104dB. Since the maximum you should listen to for 1 hour per day is 94dB, regularly using anything more is at best unnecessary, and at worst harmful. However, more powerful amps can be justified for very low sensitivity speakers.

...

If you really need to damage your hearing...

Posted on: 07 October 2015 by Flatpicker

I have, by most people's standards, a very large listening area, a wide-open combined living/dining room space that's about 60 square meters, with 3.5 meter ceilings, masonry-and-plaster walls, and hardwood floors over solaio, a bizarre form of interlocking masonry that's been around forever (our building is 500 years old).

My relatively modest kit consists of a Supernait (purchased new in late 2007), a Rega Apollo CD player, a tiny Dune HD media server housing my FLAC collection, a REL R-205 subwoofer, and a pair of truly excellent Fidelity Acoustics RFM-2 floor-standing speakers from Canada. These are two-way transmission-line speakers with Vifa Ring Radiator tweeters and ScanSpeak midrange/bass drivers. If memory serves (I'm old and senile), these are 4-ohm speakers. I obtained them directly from Philip Meyburgh, the designer/owner of the company, in Vancouver before our move to Europe in early 2008. Philip also worked for a major high-end audio retailer, and he was able to demonstrate to me that the Fidelity Acoustics would live very happily with Naim gear.

The power rating of the SN simply does not reflect its effortless performance, even in as large a listening space as mine, and the marriage of the SN and the Fidelity Acoustics produces amazing staging and imagery, taking full advantage of the room's size and ceiling height. Performance remains clean, accurate, uncolored, nuanced and completely musical (with or without the REL), even at uncomfortably loud volume levels, though we rarely set volume at anything beyond 9 o'clock, and we normally listen at around half that.

My previous kit was pretty good: at its core, a pair of Totem Arro speakers, with a modest Rotel RC-879 preamp, and sleek, cool-running Carver m500t magnetic field amplifier cranking out a conservatively rated and very clean 250 watts per channel at 8 ohms. I'd had the Carver completely refurbished, and its performance was musical and transparent -- but once I auditioned the SN on both the Totems and the Fidelity Acoustics, I sold the old kit and went with the SN/FA/Rega Apollo/REL setup.

I might not have been as pleased if I'd opted for less efficient speakers than the Fidelity Acoustics, but that's not the route I went. I learned that ultimately, it's NOT about the rated power. It's about what you actually hear, and in that respect, I'm a very happy guy.

Posted on: 07 October 2015 by Boaz

Thank you all for your thoughtful Replies!

I feel perfectly satisfy with my Naim Nait 5i2 driving my Harbeth 7es3 - the music sounds great to me and I love the look and feel of both (including my cd5i2). I also never play music beyond 11:00 and the music sounds loud and clear. It's just that I always wondering about "the next Level", and wanted to get myself the Supernait 2 - with hope to get the extra deep and powerful sound. when I started to read about the Amplifier I got confused...

Posted on: 07 October 2015 by DGH

Originally Posted by Boaz:

Thank you all for your thoughtful Replies!

I feel perfectly satisfy with my Naim Nait 5i2 driving my Harbeth 7es3 - the music sounds great to me and I love the look and feel of both (including my cd5i2). I also never play music beyond 11:00 and the music sounds loud and clear. It's just that I always wondering about "the next Level", and wanted to get myself the Supernait 2 - with hope to get the extra deep and powerful sound. when I started to read about the Amplifier I got confused...

Hi Boaz

That's the point: one should not read about amps but listen to them .

Of course with our Naim wattage we never may impress some number-hungry guests. Don't care about. Have fun with the music.

-dgh

Posted on: 07 October 2015 by Huge

Originally Posted by DGH:

Originally Posted by Boaz:

Thank you all for your thoughtful Replies!

I feel perfectly satisfy with my Naim Nait 5i2 driving my Harbeth 7es3 - the music sounds great to me and I love the look and feel of both (including my cd5i2). I also never play music beyond 11:00 and the music sounds loud and clear. It's just that I always wondering about "the next Level", and wanted to get myself the Supernait 2 - with hope to get the extra deep and powerful sound. when I started to read about the Amplifier I got confused...

Hi Boaz

That's the point: one should not read about amps but listen to them .

Of course with our Naim wattage we never may impress some number-hungry guests. Don't care about. Have fun with the music.

-dgh

Of course you can do that the other way...

Get them to listen to it, when they want the numbers, ask them to guess.

Wait for the exaggerated figures they guess at, and watch the amazement / disbelief when you tell them the actual figure.

Much more fun!

Naim Integrated with more then 80W ?

Posted by: Boaz on 04 October 2015