Pre-amps - what do they each bring to the party?
Posted by: Harry the Hornet on 04 October 2015
I currently have a 202 / 200 with a Hi-cap and this week listened to a 282. The difference was much bigger than I expected, with the 202 sounding as though a blanket was over the sound along with the expected space and soundstage benefits the 282 bought to the party.
I've seen posts where the 252 is different than a 282, although opinion seems divided based on type of music listened too i.e. the 252 is much more suited to classical or jazz.
Before I make the upgrade, I'm interested in opinions and whether they are consistent with the above and then what extra difference a 552 brings to the party. I would assume more authority, but is it even more exacting of power amp / speakers?
Not sure if it makes any difference to answers, but I'm firmly an analogue only listener with a maxed out LP12 and won't be changing that anytime soon having listened to the best that both Linn and Naim have to offer in terms of streaming.
As we are all well aware, it's all subjective and depends on a lot of variables. After having been thrilled to bits with CD5, CD5/Hi, CDX2 and CDX2/XPS2, not to mention the sheer professionalism of the dealer and Naim themselves, Helen and I were keen to go more Naim when the time came to upgrade our amp. An Audio Innovations 500.
We found the 202/200 to be good at holding a tune and grippy, but rather monochromatic - all bass and treble. We thought the combination a bit asthmatic and rather bleached. So we saved a shed load of money and just concentrated on enjoying the music for a few more years.
Then came the time when we decided the 500 had to go and because of our ongoing love of Naim sources we home auditioned the 282/250. We thought the presentation was rather contrived and mechanical. Like a Loudness button had somehow jammed on. Whereas the CDX2 had a naturally exuberant presentation and would rock along to anything, it did posess subtlety when required. But we didn't think the 282/250 so capable of this. Everything it played sounded like pedal to the metal. The following week we took it back and spent an afternoon swapping between all the permutations of 202, 282, 200 and 250 we could come up with. Then we plugged in a rather scratched and battered Graaff GM50. Sold. And another bucket of money saved.
Later when looking for new speakers we hit a truly magic moment when we heard a CDS3 into 252/300. Tears flowed. We didn't think Naim amps could do such power with subtlety, such grip with grace. It was both impressive and beautiful.
So I don't much rate some of Naim's other efforts. So what? Who cares? What does your room sound like? Nothing like mine I'll bet. This is the beauty of our passion. Well, a part of it. You might come round here and think my system is frankly a bit crappier than it should sound. That's fine. It will still sound just as good to me.
Well indeed it is absolutely subjective no doubt on that. Strangely I preferred the CD5xs over the CDX2 until the latter was wired with a XPS2 then it was game over. In effectthe CDS3 like musicality that came with the 5XS at least to some extent became apparent in the CDX2. I recognise some of your observation with regard to the 202/200 but still thought it a very engaging system but the 282 in terms of soundstage, depth, textures etc an absolute paradigm shift. And then I added the CDS3 and get your point about the emotion which is now even more so with the 250 DR.
Of course it is about room and also speakers - I doubt I'd find your systemj crappy!!
Hi Strat,
Did you find this enjoyment with the CD5xs bare or capped?
Aric
Curious with those in the know on how they rate the 272 strictly as a preamp compared to 202/282/252?
Curious with those in the know on how they rate the 272 strictly as a preamp compared to 202/282/252?
I had the chance to compare the 272 with the 282+Hicap at my dealer's audition room: both preamp using a NDX as a source and + NAP 300 + Ovator 600. We also did the comparison with 282+NDX and 272+internal streamer: in both cases we preferred the 282: the sound of the 272 was less refined and with some "sharp corners" in the mids. Nevertheless the general sound of the 272 is very good for the price level at which is offered.
My conclusion is that I will keep my 252 until a higher grade pre+streamer hits the market.
Curious with those in the know on how they rate the 272 strictly as a preamp compared to 202/282/252?
My impression is that with no external PSUs, NDX/202 just about beats 272 (as it should, if price alone is anything to go by.) That's just an initial finding after a fairly short listen, and by the end of this week I hope to listen a bit more and get a clearer picture.
If you use the search function on this forum, you will find many, many, many threads about the respective pros & cons of the 282 vs 252. Each has its own strong advocates and critics.
Most of us would agree that the 252 is more refined (than a 282 + Supercap) and more revealing of the subtleties of different musicians' techniques. This is how it should be. Some prefer this extra refinement, others less so. I found that my foot tapped when 282/hicap or 282/supercap was in the system, yet it did not whenever a 252 was in the system (and I auditioned three different 252s in two different systems).
I think I can relate to Foot tapper's summary above following my recent extensive comparison of a 252 against my 282. The 252 revealed more but on some types of the music the 282 gives me much more engagement which just made listening more emotional and thus enjoyable
Curious with those in the know on how they rate the 272 strictly as a preamp compared to 202/282/252?
I had the chance to compare the 272 with the 282+Hicap at my dealer's audition room: both preamp using a NDX as a source and + NAP 300 + Ovator 600. We also did the comparison with 282+NDX and 272+internal streamer: in both cases we preferred the 282: the sound of the 272 was less refined and with some "sharp corners" in the mids. Nevertheless the general sound of the 272 is very good for the price level at which is offered.
My conclusion is that I will keep my 252 until a higher grade pre+streamer hits the market.
Well indeed it is absolutely subjective no doubt on that. Strangely I preferred the CD5xs over the CDX2 until the latter was wired with a XPS2 then it was game over. In effectthe CDS3 like musicality that came with the 5XS at least to some extent became apparent in the CDX2. I recognise some of your observation with regard to the 202/200 but still thought it a very engaging system but the 282 in terms of soundstage, depth, textures etc an absolute paradigm shift. And then I added the CDS3 and get your point about the emotion which is now even more so with the 250 DR.
Of course it is about room and also speakers - I doubt I'd find your systemj crappy!!
Hi Strat,
Did you find this enjoyment with the CD5xs bare or capped?
Aric
I've never heard the CD5xs capped - at least as far as I can recall. I've heard it twice in a domestic environment and frankly I think it's one of those products that punches way beyond its weight.
A friend of mine runs one with a Nait XS2 and Neat speakers - sumptious sound.
I think I once read on here that the CD5XS with a HC was slightly forced but may be mistaken.
I tried a Hicap on my then CD5xs and slightly forced is something of an understatement. Totally mad is a better description - it's like everything is on steroids. The flatcap is designed to do the job, and does it very well.
My experience trying a SC2 on a SN was very similar- in your face dynamics with a loss of all musical flow and cohesiveness.Put in a FC2X, something was missing. Put the HC2 back in all all fell back together in spades. Sometimes there is too much of a good thing 
.
ATB,
Mark
I tried a Hicap on my then CD5xs and slightly forced is something of an understatement. Totally mad is a better description - it's like everything is on steroids. The flatcap is designed to do the job, and does it very well.
HH,
Any opinions on whether a DR Hicap would better? I'm assuming it was the non-DR version.
Aric
I don't see why it would make a difference. The flatcap is what you need for a 5 series player. If you want a better player than the 5xs, look at a CDS3.
So, here's the thing, it's hard to justify the purchase of an inferior power supply, one that can be used with less products insofar as providing the level of benefit really necessary, one that degrades - on a resale level - faster than the superior product, etc. Here in the States, the HiCap is less than 50% more than a Flatcap, has clearly better vfm and lets me enjoy upgrades well into the future.
As far as the DR thing, I can't help but see a reason why it wouldn't improve the situation.
I bought a factory refurbished Olive HiCap to go on my CD5. It was a wonderful combination. Music like I didn't believe my system could produce, and the bare CD5 was no slouch to begin with. This of course was way before the days of DR power supplies. IIRC I eventually sold it for near what it cost me.
The pre amp within my integrated is just but a small area of PCB circuit that nonetheless has its own dedicated mcguffins that makes sure it works properly. #125.
I can't recall if the subject of a new, super source (i.e. better then CD555/NDS) is under development by Naim to match their Statement amps. However, if so, then in many ways this seems to follow the nominal Naim course over the last 20 years where Naim introduce the superior preamp before the source. For the 552, yes at first the CDS3 was available (simultaneous I believe), but ultimately the 552 was capable of more as the 555 later proved. With both the 552 and perhaps the S1, maybe Naim need(ed) the best possible pre to develop and confirm the best possible source.
Similar to a CDS3/552 vs 555/252 which is better demonstration, it would be very interesting to hear a Statement Source/552 vs 555/S1.
Back to the OP's question, maybe like Naim, you should acquire the best Pre (as mentioned more than once on this thread) before acquiring the best source. Or rather, only by having a great pre can you confirm you have a great source?!?
Im new to the virus from a 20 year hiatus. I picked up a 92/90 then within a year SC'ed CDs 2 etc. so fresh in my memory, all the boxes have the fairy dust Some have more than others. I look at it like what you can afford at the time. If I could I would...
In my experience, the better the preamp the more it makes of the sources. True the preamp can not create what is not there, but i have found the better the preamp the less discerning it is of the source to produce an attractive musical audio.
and the opposite holds true, the less cable the preamp the more it requires a better source to sound great, albeit within reason...
An example ... My CDX2 sounded ok with my 202, great with my 282, but really came into its own in my opinion with my 252.
My Hugo was superb with my 282, and even better with my 252, although I'd say the difference was less than the CDX2 between 282 and 252, albeit the latter gave more more insight and subtle info in the music that really added to my enjoyment... this sort of info just appeared not to be noticeable on my CDX2.
So here in my experience the preamp clearly is maximising the source.. no matter what it is.
Simon