My Carlton - Retired from commuting now.
Posted by: George F on 04 October 2015
The Carlton has served as loyal work-horse in all weather for many years now, and is being retired from that onerous task, to be used for fun and occasional rides to work in dry weather.
There is nothing spare on this bike. Just a fined down old machine that goes like nothing else that I have ridden. Far to nice to use in rough weather.
ATB from George
It is NEVER that wet.
I have a road-cross bike / tourer with disc brakes, the frame is not unlike a pure road bike from the same artisan builder. My feeling is that the disc brakes are a constant source of irritation, even if they have some stopping advantage. On the same roads I have never had the problems with rim brakes (Campy skeletons) in terms of stopping and truing brake pads, trying to avoid wobble rub, that I have had with the disc brakes.
At least with rims, you can see how much rubber you have left. I was somewhat embarrassed in Italy when I found myself descending with only a functional front disc. Road discsmpads are more sensitive than their MTB kin.You also have to think a lot more about fork and axle design for road discs. I can imagine things are improving, as technology and design evolve, but it's not really fair to compare MTB with road discs as you need to consider one runs with a 140 -160 mm and the other with >200. Most standard flat bar tourers are equipped with MTB brakes - the cross hybrids that seem to be drifting on to the road scene are not.
Like Winky, I think STI / Ergopower levers are totally fit for purpose and for me much more intuitive and easier to use than MTB systems, but that's probably because >80% of my riding is with that system
I'd say that my colleagues who commute on disc-braked bikes seem to have more issues with their brake reliability than I do. Rotor truing and pad-rub are a pain for them. Having said that, my next winter bike will have discs for the wet weather benefits.
It is NEVER that wet.
You must be luckier than I, where you live. Torrential (and horIzonal) rain and standing (or rather running) water 2 or 3 inches deep are far from uncommon.
Great conditions for testing waterproofness of clothing (nothing is) as well as effectiveness of brakes and lights!
I'd say that my colleagues who commute on disc-braked bikes seem to have more issues with their brake reliability than I do. Rotor truing and pad-rub are a pain for them. Having said that, my next winter bike will have discs for the wet weather benefits.
Maybe different brands differ, or else I'm just lucky - never a single problem with mine in 6 years, just occasionalal routine adjustment to take up wear. I don't know what brand mine are -it's a Kona Dew Drop bike.
Dear Peter,
I could not cope with Ergo brake-lever/gear shifters!
I am still on down-tube shifters! The brake levers on the Carlton are Gran Sport from forty plus year ago, and still work as well as anything since. Modulation is extremely precise. Power to stop is never in doubt. But I do use Shimano Ultegra Brake blocks, and that is an advance. On both bikes.
Best wishes from George
Of course you could cope with STI/ergopower. They're much easier to use. No downsides. Super reilable, and just a fraction heavier. You might think that your ancient GS brakes are the business, but trust me, they're way, way less powerful and controllable than modern twin-pivot calipers.
Dear Winki,
Certainly your reply has caused the generation of some really interesting posts.
There is a fundamental reason why the ergo type brake cum gear lever system would be no good for me. I cannot get comfortable with a drop bar on a bike. I find the semi-drop I use on the Carlton comfortable, and you might be surprised how fast I can go with it. But in no way could I fit ergo levers to a North Road Bar ...
Plus, I expect that you have forgotten that a few years ago I had an Ambrosio Guido [alluminium and carbon framed] bike fitted with a good Campag groupset including ergo levers.
If I could have got eleven speed indexed levers for the downtube then I would have done. I sold the bike instead to someone who really likes it!
The only place I could get a good purchase on the brakes was in the low position on the drop bars. Trying to ride on the hoods made braking horrible, resulting in painful finger and knuckle joints. Plus I would get a cramp in my thumbs sometimes in less than ten minutes like that.
So my original comment stands. I could never cope with any ergo levers. Nor conventional drop bars. And yes the braking on the Carlton is quite powerful enough for complete control, though I agree with those who rightly point out that normal rim brakes can be a bit awkward in the wet. Slow to respond because of the wet ...
Your point about dual pivots is not really quite right. The force applied to the braking surface is combination of the gearing of the lever and the calliper. If the levers and callipers are matched then a suitable amount of force may be applied to the braking surfaces with reasonable hand force on the levers. Provided that sufficient force can be applied at the braking surfaces then there is no advantage to having more. I would further add that good wheel rims have a marked effect on controlling the degree of braking. The finer the rim the less the chance of the brake pulsing.
Another factor that is important is selecting the brake blocks for the material from which the rims are made. These two last points are vital for modulating the braking force as required.
Get these aspects right, and I can promise you that I have, and I can further guarantee that you would find the braking on the Carlton progressive, and certainly not needing any more power. And most of all, very easily modulated for maximum slowing without the unpleasant effect of lifting the back wheel, though of course any strong brake on a bike can manage that with careless force on the brake lever.
As I understand it, disc brakes work better in the wet, but otherwise do not bring significant changes in stopping distances. Of course in the wet tyre adhesion can also be an added problem, especially on surfaces where there has been leaf fall, so it is sensible to be going slower anyway. The rim brake issue becomes insignificant under these conditions for naturally cautious cycle riders.
Anyway, your post has stimulated what has been a most interesting set of responses that I have enjoyed reading. So thanks for replying.
ATB from George
I'm running a standard road bike with Dura-Ace 9000 series Shimano levers and calipers as well as an all-road/gravel/insert your favourite marketing bs. term for a bike with bigger tires/adventure bike, running Ultegra level Shimano road discs and levers. I've logged about 4000km on discs, my wife just over 8000km this season as her main bike runs discs.
My observations:
+ Shimano really nailed the 9000 series calipers, levers and cables. I'm using Zipp rims, 25mm tires and SwissStop Black Prince pads. It's by far the best rim braking system I have ever used. Power and modulation are excellent even on the carbon rims, easily the equal of aluminium rims imo.
- There is some squeal under hard braking on carbon rims and in wet conditions you need a full revolution of the wheel to dry the rim before the pads bite.
Compared to rim brakes:
+ Shimano's road disc system has about the same amount of power using a 140mm rotor and a bit more with a 160mm rotor. I've never run less than a 30mm tire so there is already some additional grip to be had when braking. I've not tested a hybrid setup of 160mm fornt and 140mm rear.
+ Able to brake significantly latter in to corners. My wife has gained a huge amount of confidence when decending. One of her proudest moments on a bike was overtaking one of the male pro's in our club on a descent.
+ Modulation is significantly better. Also you need less force to apply the brakes which is fantastic on long decents. I have a fairly regular decent of about 40km and with rim brakes my hands can get quite achey, especially if it's cold. That doesn't happen with discs.
+ Better in the wet.
+ Less damage and stress on rims due to grit and dirt.
- When using quick release wheels slightly more care is needed to make sure the rotors are correctly alligned. On my wife's bike we swapped the OEM skewers to DT Swiss RWS levers. The wheels are more secure and easier to align. I'm using thru axles front and rear so have no alignment issues.
In general I'm happy to use either but in the spring and summer I'm happier with the aero bennefits of my standard setup. However when I venture off paved roads or it gets wet, dirty or cold the discs really come in to their own.
Currently both SRAM and Shimano have derived their road solutions from MTB parts. In time we will see discs directly integrated in to frames as well as getting lighter. When the aero and weight penalty is close to null I'm pretty sure most bikes will come with discs. My prediction 2018/19 after the pros go disc in 2017.
It is NEVER that wet.
You must be luckier than I, where you live. Torrential (and horIzonal) rain and standing (or rather running) water 2 or 3 inches deep are far from uncommon.
Great conditions for testing waterproofness of clothing (nothing is) as well as effectiveness of brakes and lights!
I live in Vancouver so know a little bit about cold rain. I ride year-round nearly every day and never wish I was in the car. But I completely agree that nothing by way of clothing keeps you dry when it is really wet. But that's OK because all you need is to not be cold, and that's actually quite easy. The water washes right off.
True about it washing right off - however whilst I dont mind when going home from work, I don't like starting the working day that way!
Gets a bit difficult without windscreen wipers at times...
True about it washing right off - however whilst I dont mind when going home from work, I don't like starting the working day that way!
Gets a bit difficult without windscreen wipers at times...
I'm lucky enough to have great facilities at the office. I shower when I arrive, and change into the clean clothes that I keep there. I have my work clothes laundered nearby so that I don't have to schlep them to-and-fro the office.