Anticables speaker cable

Posted by: rainsoothe on 08 October 2015

Hi. I know there's been a couple of threads on this subject, but neither answers my question, so I'd appreciate any kind of answer from people with appropriate knowledge on this stuff (hopefully Naim staff as well) - I emailed both Naim support and anticables on the matter with no response yet.

 

First, a little update on a previous thread, I decided on Naim UQ2, and awaiting for my dealer to restock on Nap100 to add. I'm driving a pair of Focal Aria 906, currently via Audioquest Type 4 speaker cable (electrical properties unknown).

 

So my question is whether a pair of 4m lengths of Anticables Level 2 Performance would be dangerous for UQ2 or Nap100 or not.

 

Before the NAC A5 police start swarming in, I know the Nac A5, I don't like it with these, and much prefer Chord Rumour 2, which is my other candidate. But I want to demo the Anticables as well to see what the hype is all about.

 

The problem they seem to have is very high compared capacitance to the Nac A5, assuming the conversions I made are correct and capacitance does not add up when length is increased. I know that the NACA5 was vital for the older designs, but wondering if Anticables would be safe to use with Nap100 or UQ2 since much newer technology. Maybe the technical differences are insignificant and I should just get the one that I like the sound of.

 

NACA5 specs:

          Capacitance: 16 pF/m

          Resistance:   9 milliOhm/m

          Inductance:   1 uH/m

 

Anticables Level 2:

          Capacitance: 0.048 nF/f (48 pf/foot or 157.48 pf/m)

          Resistance:   0.0032 Ohm/f (32 milliOhm/f or 10.49 milliOhm/m)

          Inductance:   0.0003 milliH/f (0.3 uH/f or 0.98 uH/m)

 

As you can see, Resistance and Inductance are pretty simmilar, the only variable being the Capacitance, which seems unreal.

 

Would much appreciate some help. Thank you very much indeed.

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by Mike-B

I don't believe both the capacitance & inductance numbers.   

Cable configuration plays a big part in setting C&L

Wide spacing such as NACA5, VDH & LInn will give high L & low C

Twisted pair such as Chord, Rega & QED gives middle of the road C&L

- around 60pF/m & 0.50uH/m

Woven/plaited will give high C & low L

These cables with loose (unsheathed) twisted pairs would most likely be middle of the road & until I measure them myself or read from an independent what the actual numbers are, I don't believe them.

 

 

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by Williewonka
Originally Posted by rainsoothe:

Hi. I know there's been a couple of threads on this subject, but neither answers my question, so I'd appreciate any kind of answer from people with appropriate knowledge on this stuff (hopefully Naim staff as well) - I emailed both Naim support and anticables on the matter with no response yet.

 

First, a little update on a previous thread, I decided on Naim UQ2, and awaiting for my dealer to restock on Nap100 to add. I'm driving a pair of Focal Aria 906, currently via Audioquest Type 4 speaker cable (electrical properties unknown).

 

So my question is whether a pair of 4m lengths of Anticables Level 2 Performance would be dangerous for UQ2 or Nap100 or not.

 

Before the NAC A5 police start swarming in, I know the Nac A5, I don't like it with these, and much prefer Chord Rumour 2, which is my other candidate. But I want to demo the Anticables as well to see what the hype is all about.

 

The problem they seem to have is very high compared capacitance to the Nac A5, assuming the conversions I made are correct and capacitance does not add up when length is increased. I know that the NACA5 was vital for the older designs, but wondering if Anticables would be safe to use with Nap100 or UQ2 since much newer technology. Maybe the technical differences are insignificant and I should just get the one that I like the sound of.

 

NACA5 specs:

          Capacitance: 16 pF/m

          Resistance:   9 milliOhm/m

          Inductance:   1 uH/m

 

Anticables Level 2:

          Capacitance: 0.048 nF/f (48 pf/foot or 157.48 pf/m)

          Resistance:   0.0032 Ohm/f (32 milliOhm/f or 10.49 milliOhm/m)

          Inductance:   0.0003 milliH/f (0.3 uH/f or 0.98 uH/m)

 

As you can see, Resistance and Inductance are pretty simmilar, the only variable being the Capacitance, which seems unreal.

 

Would much appreciate some help. Thank you very much indeed.

I gave this some thought  - I think It really depends on total cable length...

 

NACA5 specifications are as follows:
Capacitance:         16pF per metre

Resistance:          9 milliohms per metre

Inductance:          1uH per metre

 

Minimum length:     3.5 metres per channel

Maximum length:    20 metres per channel (note that longer lengths can be used up to around 25 m but then some small signal loss must be expected)

 

This would mean that based on the range of cable length 3.5-20 meters -  NAIM amps amp can easily accommodate values in the range of...

 

Capacitance:         56pF to 320pf per cable

Resistance:         31.5 milliohms to 180 milliohms per cable

Inductance:          3.5uH to 20 uH per cable

 

In my current listening space my cables are in the 3.5 metre range

- so this affords me fair degree of latitude in that...

- I can actually use cables up to "91pF per metre"  in order to comply with "NAIM requirements"

 

Knowing NAIM - I would believe  there is a factor of safety built in also.

 

Capacitance is perhaps the only metric to concern yourself with, since with many high performance SS amps it can cause oscillation that...

-  at best -  will degrade the sound and

- at worst - will blow the amp

 

I used Van den Hul d352 without incident for several years and they sounded great

 

BTW - capacitance depends on the type insulation used and how thick it is and cable architecture

 

Hope this helps

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by Richard Dane

Except it's the balance of the three parameters that's also critical.  And that's where just focussing on one, such as capacitance, without considering say, inductance, ends in something that is at best, less than optimum, and at worst, potentially damaging to the amp.

 

High capacitance cables were the original "high definition" cables that caused Naim amps (and others that also rely on the speaker cable to provide the inductance for stability, such as Exposure) to break.  Anyone remember the big solid conductor cables like Electrofluidics Monolith?  A definite no-no on Naim amps.  They are part of the reason for the warning at the beginning of the amp manuals.

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by rainsoothe
Thank you all.
 
@Williewonka - I read that, and according to it, the Anticables would require shorter then 2m lenghts to fit into the capacitance safety zone, but then Inductance would be wrong. Also, I was a bit worried that the numbers in that thread weren't particularly correct.
 
Originally Posted by Richard Dane:

Except it's the balance of the three parameters that's also critical.  And that's where just focussing on one, such as capacitance, without considering say, inductance, ends in something that is at best, less than optimum, and at worst, potentially damaging to the amp.

 

High capacitance cables were the original "high definition" cables that caused Naim amps (and others that also rely on the speaker cable to provide the inductance for stability, such as Exposure) to break.  Anyone remember the big solid conductor cables like Electrofluidics Monolith?  A definite no-no on Naim amps.  They are part of the reason for the warning at the beginning of the amp manuals.

 So you're saying this applies to newer stuff like UQ2 and Nap100 as well? Or does it only concern older models? I mean having a clear and unbiased "stay away from anticables" would be of great help

 

Thanks again.

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by Richard Dane

If it were me, judging by the specs, I'd pass on trying to use the anti cables with Naim, whatever the amp.  

 

Particularly in the case of Naim, where the speaker cable effectively becomes a part of the amp, you cannot judge a cable in isolation - It has to be judged with the amp.  And Naim amps work best with a cable with low capacitance and moderate inductance, because that's how they're designed.

 

Why make life any harder for yourself?  

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by kuma

Richard,

 

What is the current Naim policy on warranty when end users use aftermarket cables?

 

Does it vary by a distributor? Or is there a corporate policy? 

Company like Spectral is pretty clear they will NOT honour the warranty when not used with MIT cables.

 

I'd think that a notion of manufactures dictating what cables to use is a tough pill to swallow for budding audiophiles. Altho I am surprised that a few Naim dealers selling non Naim speaker cables to their customers often.

 

Newer amps are supposedly more flexible with cables but i don't know how if they are still running on the same topology.

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by Richard Dane

Kuma,

 

I can't really speak for Naim or their distributors here.  Probably a question best answered by Naim themselves.

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by kuma

Oh that's too bad cuz, they rarely reply here.

 

So it will stay ambiguous. 

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by Richard Dane

Kuma,

 

I would suggest sending Naim an e-mail.

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by Williewonka
Originally Posted by rainsoothe:
Thank you all.
 
@Williewonka - I read that, and according to it, the Anticables would require shorter then 2m lenghts to fit into the capacitance safety zone, but then Inductance would be wrong. Also, I was a bit worried that the numbers in that thread weren't particularly correct.
 
Originally Posted by Richard Dane:

Except it's the balance of the three parameters that's also critical.  And that's where just focussing on one, such as capacitance, without considering say, inductance, ends in something that is at best, less than optimum, and at worst, potentially damaging to the amp.

 

High capacitance cables were the original "high definition" cables that caused Naim amps (and others that also rely on the speaker cable to provide the inductance for stability, such as Exposure) to break.  Anyone remember the big solid conductor cables like Electrofluidics Monolith?  A definite no-no on Naim amps.  They are part of the reason for the warning at the beginning of the amp manuals.

 So you're saying this applies to newer stuff like UQ2 and Nap100 as well? Or does it only concern older models? I mean having a clear and unbiased "stay away from anticables" would be of great help

 

Thanks again.

Rainsoothe - after taking another look at this I see I missed the fact that Anticables spec is per foot and not per meter

 

So...

 

0.048nF  = 48pF but that is per foot

Convert to per meter =  156 pf/meter 

Multiply by cable length of 4meters = 624 pF per cable

 

This is more than double what is "acceptable" to NAIM amps (in general)

 

So from that perspective alone I agree with Richard - do not try them.

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by Williewonka
Originally Posted by rainsoothe:
 I mean having a clear and unbiased "stay away from anticables" would be of great help

 

Thanks again.

Would be nice but it might lead to a law suit.

 

Fact is, there are so many other cable brands that have high capacitance - certain Cardas cables can cause issues and some Kimber Kables products. None of which seem to effect tube amps.

 

There are also many amps that suffer the same issue and they don't warn their customers.

 

An acquaintance toasted a $9k Gryphon integrated amp AND an Ayre amp with some Cardas cables - Now that stings!

 

He was not aware of this problem and the user manual did not warn him

 

Regards...

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by Lo-Fi

I've used 10 meter lengths of Anti-Cable with a Nait 2 (I know!) without any problems whatsoever.  Apparently the amp will get warm if the  speaker cables used cause it some stress.  My Nait is always cool to the touch.

 

I wanted to try some Naca but 60 feet of the stuff is too pricey for me.

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by kuma
 

Originally Posted by Richard Dane:

Kuma,

 

I would suggest sending Naim an e-mail.

Richard,

 

nah.. Not for me cuz, I'll never use anything other than Naim speaker cables. When I tried a few aftermarket leads, they all lost the grooves and some made the amp hotter. which surely the sign of some stress.

 

But for others who are new to Naim world, it is very counter intuitive why they need certain level of capacitance/inductance for amp to be stable.

 

It is indeed curious to see why Naim does not mandate the use of NACA5 publicly. ( as Spectral did )

Posted on: 08 October 2015 by rainsoothe

Hi again, all, and thanks for all your replies.

 

I was about to give up on trying the Anticables 'till Lo-Fi's reply. Anyways, searching power amp documentation made me find this in the Nap100 reference manual: 

 

"16.3 Loudspeaker Cable and Connectors A stereo set of speaker connection sockets is provided on the rear panel. Custom Naim Audio loudspeaker connectors are supplied to make the connection and in order to comply with current European safety regulations these should always be used. Naim Audio speaker cable will provide the best results; however, a wide range of speaker cable types can be used without risk of damage to the amplifier. Ensure when connecting speakers that they are “in phase”. That is, the positive and negative connection orientation at both the speaker and amplifier ends of the cable is the same for both channels."

 

All the other power amps have warnings against the so-called "HIGH FIDELITY CABLES" which might damage the amp. The Nap100 supposedly turns off if it gets at 70 degrees Celsius, so that might be added protection. So, in conclusion, I guess I could try them whilst being really careful with the heat on the power amp - in comparison to normal usage.

Posted on: 09 October 2015 by rainsoothe

Ok, quick update - I got a reply from Paul (from Anticables) clarifying what I needed to know. So the specs I linked are for when the cable runs are twisted. If you untwist them, capacitance drops and inductance increases (which seems to be what Naim likes). He told me that for usage with Naim, that's the way to do it. A bit untidy for my liking, but if the sound warrants it, then it doesn't really matter. Aditionally, from what I understand, higher capacitance means that the high frequencies are more extended. As my living room can make gear sound bright and sybilant at times, lowering the capacitance and making the highs a bit rolled off can be a good thing. Can't wait to try them, and I'll keep you posted on how they sound. Waiting on the Nap100 now

 

By the way, the figures from the manual also specify the electrical properties with the leads spread "at least a few inches apart". So the Resistance stays the same, Inductance is roughly 2.7 higher (from 0.30 to 0.82 uH/foot run) - which I guess implies you can reach the desired Naim 3.5 minimum inductance with a shorter length (basically with less then 1.5 meters, at 2.69/m, with a small "BUT" I'll clarify in a sec). As for Capacitance, it gets 24 times smaller (at 0.002nF/foot run), while before it was 8 times the Capacitance of NACA5.

 

Now for the BUT - as I won't be spreading the wires "at least a few inches apart", but only one or two centimeters, I believe the cables will be in the sweetspot - spec-wise. As for the sound, as I mentioned earlier, I'll come back to that another time

 

Thanks for the assistance everyone, and hope this helped clarify some stuff for others as well.