NDS Quest and More Metadata/Tagging Questions

N-Serve gives artist, composer and collaborator information which is hyperlinked - or at least it did when I used it with the HDX. A very good app. N-Stream, now called the streaming app is pale by comparison, even with Naim ripped files, which it can't seem to interrogate to the same level as the old N-Serve app. Where the streaming app scores is that you get system automation. 

Naim interrogates the AMG database in real time when HDX or US does a rip. It consults an internal database and if you have a web connection it will hop out to the on line database too, if it needs to. It doesn't use it for play back. Yes, you do get Rovi. And if you rate Rovi that's fine. I think it's a joke and I wish Naim would allow user configurable notes and artwork. But they haven't managed to get the volume control function right yet, so first things first.

As far as tags go you can create anything you like. The trick is getting the server to send them to the streamer. If you are using a US to rip you will be limited but the Desktop Client does allow some latitude here (I can't remember with much detail now but you can download user manuals). 

One thing worth investigating is what the US will sound like. We kept our HDX in circuit  when we went to NDS because it was a good server, it would rip new acquisitions on CD, it did other things etc. etc. Then one day we took it out and fed the NDS with Minimserver from a NAS. The HDX never went back. It was having a detectable effect on musical communication and not a good one. Food for thought possibly.

1) I do not know of any app or control that allows you to display the booklet (typically a .pdf file, e.g., if you buy music on hyperion or qobuz) of the album currently playing. To me this is an unacceptable flaw. I have written a short script to display the booklet of the current album on my laptop. On linux systems, this is just a single line of code and the booklet shows up at a fingertip (if an album is actually playing). But I have no idea how to port it to iOS. For iOS developers it would be a trivial task and it is a shame if the new Naim app does not support it.

2) As far as I know UPnP does not support customizable tags. This means that, if you are relying on a UPnP server as all Naim streamers do, you will not be able to add any category beyond the default GENRE, ARTIST, COMPOSER, ALBUM, etc. Of course, you should be able to assign multiple values to a given category. For instance, you could tag a file with the values "jazz" "latin jazz" and "straight ahead jazz" for the GENRE category. But, afaik, you will not be able to add a, say DRUMMER or a FIRST VIOLIN category to the default ones. This is, in my view, another unacceptable flaw. It makes UPnP based solutions essentialy worthless for classical music collectors (or, tout court, for users that want (or have to) classify their music according to a specific scheme) and is one of the main reasons I am not interested in Naim streaming solutions. Mind you, MPD is not better in this respect. But, at least, it is less pretentious.

Thank you, nbpf.

Unfortunately, the closer I get to taking this digital plunge, the more I identify nuances about it that may negatively impact the way I collect, organize and enjoy music. Obviously, there are a lot of conveniences as well (vs. playing CDs), but I would at least hope to be able to reference the same background information with the digital file that I do with a CD.

While the Naim solution seems to be the most integrated (in terms of the way the NDS, US, Naim apps, etc. work together), there are still logistical limitations that give me pause, and that's not even considering the fact that some people believe passionately that there are better sounding solutions (e.g. Chord DACs). I'm sure rips played via the NDS/555PS will sound better than my CDX2, as they should, but it's interesting to me how much disagreement there is among fervent Naim supporters about whether Naim offers the best sounding digital solution.

I fear the answers so far might create some misunderstanding.

The Naim app has a link to Rovi to retrieve the booklet information. I have the Gauco album an I just took a peek. The answer is no, Rovi does not show the credits by song, just the credits on the album. It is not as detailed as the real liner notes in a cd booklet.

For categorising your music you are limited by the number of tags supported by the file format. google ID3v2 for more information. WAV is very limited.

You could setup your own category tree, but you have one tag to set your classification: genre. And you cannot display them as a tree, it would result in a list as long as the number of distinct genres you typed into the tag.

This is not only the case with Naim, but with any streaming solution I am aware off. If there is a system with extended properties it is a propriety solution, meaning you cannot switch to other manufacturers and keep the information. ID3v2 is the standard supported by all, and not even all of the tags.

Mostly Drummer, let me be a bit more precise: Naim builds excellent streaming systems and I am certainly not arguing that the way they integrate LAN-based streaming, internet streaming, Rovi or other music-specific services is worse than what other companies do. In many cases, it is probably much better.

That said, I think Naim has cleverly managed to take advantage of Apple's popularity to bring streaming solutions tailored for the masses to the masses. If you are fine with iOS, iPads and iPhones and with the way Apple thinks music should be organized, browsed and searched by its customers, you will probably be fine with Naim's streaming app.

On the other hand, if you are looking for a system that allows you to decide how to organize, browse and search your music (for instance, because you have a specific interest for a certain musical genre or because you are in charge of managing a music collection for a school, museum or public institution and you are meant to organize that collection according to criteria which meet the needs of your users), than you might find Naim's software quite disappointing: the software is designed for easy mass consume, not for professional applications. It is hardly customizable and comes with virtually no documentation.

In a way and as I mentioned in another thread, I think that current streaming solutions, whether from Naim or other companies, are essentially ill designed alternatives to classical CD collections and CD players. They are good for selling a lot of (readily obsolete) commodity hardware but bad for an intimate listening experience.

A better alternative would be a device in which one can plug one or two SSD drives full of tagged data (the CD collection). The on-board software would parse the data and build a local database according to user-defined keywords or categories. Database setup and replay would be wirelesly controllable from a tablet computer: no UPnP server, no switches, no ethernet wires into one's living room, no data transfer at replay time. On demand, the tablet software would display the booklet of the currently playing album or of an album of one's choice. Or perhaps retrieve additional information from internet resources like Rovi.

In a nutshell, to me current streaming solutions offer a lot of what I do not need or want and very little of what I really want. MPD based solutions are far from ideal but a little bit better. Solutions based on Jriver or Audirvana might be better software wise. But the advantages (e.g. of user-customizable searching categories or criteria in Jriver) are bought at the expense of other disadvantages.

Given things as they are, I tend to think it is better to invest on amplification, speakers, headphones and dacs rather than on integrated streaming solutions. Just my two cents. Best, nbpf

Displaying the booklet you have bought with your music files is as basic as displaying the cover art. I believe that any decent app should be able to retrieve and display these data as long as they are stored in the same folder as the music data. Doing so does not even require an internet connection.

You can easily add arbitrary tags to .flac files with lltag, qoobar or Jriver. But UPnP servers will only parse music collections for a fixed set of not user configurable tags. Thus, solutions based on UPnP client-server architectures (and therefore Naim streaming solutions) cannot support custom tags. For managing classical music collections (and not only for that) this is unacceptable.

n-Serve does provide many details regarding artist, engineer, recording, etc, but this comes into play with the US. (this is still the case Harry)

For the Naim streaming app, this information does not come through, nor the booklet from the CD (cover art yes, booklet no), but the Rovi link gives a lot of detail (which is accessible whilst listening to your music)regarding the album, artist and recording history.

Its good, but could be better (a bit like my old school reports...) but that is the option available.

So there is a disparity between the n-Serve app and the Naim streaming app in the information provided.

The cover art is downloaded automatically when the CD is ripped, but its only the cover art not the whole booklet.

The categories as mentioned above are standard categories, but within the categories there is the possibility to create new genres as an example.

Reassigning / adjusting the basic metadata at time of rip using n-Serve app is an absolute pleasure and so easy (for example I do this for renaming items or reassigning genres).

The Desktop Client gives greater options and functionality via PC or MAC.

Again, all of this is related to the US.

If you use a NAS set up as UPnP server, you would need to adjust these items via the UPnP server software via your laptop, PC, MAC.

For me the US and Naim streamer fulfills my requirements and much more regarding information provided & overall functionality and SQ, but for others not so.

It depends how deep in information you like to get while listening to music.

As nbpf mentions, classical throws up a set of different issues, but that doesnt affect me as I rarely listen to classical.

I dont know how easy it would be for you, but best way would be to get to your nearest dealer and get them to demo the whole process of ripping a CD to US, how you adjust metadata via n-Serve, how you then play this via the streamer, and what information you can access.

Its probably a bit easier to see it than explain it in words but at least then you could see if it would give you what you are looking for or if it is lacking in certain areas relative to what you want.

Good luck in your quest Mostly Drummer, will look forward to hearing the steps you take.

I mean "this is, to me, unacceptable", of course!

There are plenty of UPnP servers that offer many ways to customize tags.  But I think that nbpf is right -- at least I don't know of UPnP servers that would let you introduce an entirely new tag, such as DRUMMER.

But I think that MinimServer may be flexible enough to let you take an unused tag, such as say ENCODEDBY, and map it to different text.  You should look into that -- can you effectively turn the ENCODEDBY tag into "DRUMMER?"  MinimServer supports something called "tag aliasing," and maybe this is an effective way to 'add' non FLAC/Vorbis tags to one's repertoire.  I've never tried it.

Right, the problem is that we tend to use the notion of "tag" and "tagging" in a fuzzy fashion. What is important is to clearly distinguish between keys (fields, categories, etc.) and key values.

Examples of keys are COMPOSER, ARTIST, GENRE. What we usually call "tagging" is the process of associating (manually or automatically) one or more values to one or more keys.

For instance, if I execute lltag -S on 01 Bach Brandenburg Concerto No 1 in F major, BW - 1 [Allegro].flac at the command line, I get

 01 Bach Brandenburg Concerto No 1 in F major, BW - 1 [Allegro].flac:
  ARTIST=John Butt - Dunedin Consort
  TITLE=Bach: Brandenburg Concerto No 1 in F major, BWV1046 - 1: [Allegro]
  ALBUM=Bach | Brandenburg Concertos | John Butt, Dunedin Consort
  NUMBER=01
  GENRE=classical - baroque - chamber
  DATE=2012
  DISCNUMBER=1
  TRACKTOTAL=19

  LYRICS=The first concerto is immediately prominent ...

  ALBUMARTIST=John Butt, Dunedin Consort
  CONDUCTOR=John Butt
  COPYRIGHT=© 2013 Linn Records
  COMPOSER=Bach, Johann Sebastian (1685-1750)
  DISCTOTAL=1

showing the values associated to the ARTIST, TITLE, ..., DISCTOTAL keys of the file. The output indicates that I have "tagged" the GENRE key with three values: classical, baroque and chamber.

It goes without saying that any decent tagging software allows you to modify the values of certain keys. But if one wants to organize a music collection according to personal criteria, one needs the capability of adding new keys (a DRUMMER key, for instance) and erasing or ignoring unused ones.

Only a few tagging programs allow you to erase keys or add your own keys. Amont them are lltag and qoobar. Even worst, virtually no music player or player app allows you to configure the keys to be used for browsing, searching, etc.

One of the worst examples in terms of customizability is probably Apple's standard music player: it only "knows" three (or perhaps 4, I do not remember) keys and will not honour whatever attempt at browsing your music collection according to other criteria. Naim's app is probably a bit better but, in this respect, still very primitive.

I have to add that there is no technical reason for this lack of flexibility. A server could easily read a set of user specific keys, build a database according to those keys and announce to clients the avaialbale keys in much the same way as it announces the number of entries of the collection.

One of the big advantages of good classification software (in contrast to hardware based solutions: drawers, shelfs, etc.) is its configurability and flexibility. Good software makes it possible to setup solutions which meet individual needs or preferences. Poor, unflexible classification software, on the other hand, can be much worse than old fashioned shelfs, sticky notes, hard to open cd cases and paper booklets.

Nbpf, I think we can conclude that digitizing and streaming is not for you I'll stick to cd's if I was in your shoes. Given your reactions, I think you will be very frustrated when using any solution.

Not really. I have ripped all my CDs about 2 years ago and tested ethernet streaming and USB streaming in my environment. I went for the latter and I am actually quite happy with my (almost all) Naim system. I would be happy to turn it into a full Naim system but I do not see any point in replacing my music server with a UnitiServe. This would make data transfer and administration awkward. The MPD clients I am using are, as I mentioned, not optimal but, in my opinion, better than Naim's control app. I can browse and search my music collection according to about 10 criteria and combinations thereof and my server has been running steadily at low power 24/7 since months. I can open the booklet of the album which is currently playing with a fingertip. I am fine with digitalizing and streaming. It's just that I find it a bit disappointing when it turns out that highly praised, expensive proprietary solutions cannot offer much more (or, worse, offer even less) than off-the-shelf open source solutions.

Why would it? I thinks that's an assumption on your behalf. Open source advocates have been saying otherwise for more than a decade.

But it also shows the weakness: you cannot move away from the ecosystem you have created yourself without sacrificing something. It has as much lock-in. The common denominator is UPnP and ID3v2 and that's what Naim (and any other manufacturer I am aware of) supports.

And why change something that is serving you well in the first place?

I thoroughly enjoy my UPnP based home system, and somehow muddle along with only the tags supported by the Naim App and the UnitiServe (or, when the mood strikes, MinimServer or Asset which run on what is my backup nas).

Sounds fabulous, and for me anyway, I've yet to want to sort by more than Artist.  (The only other sort I really like is "Newest" (newest additions to the library) and the UnitiServe supports that but I've not found a corollary on Minim or Asset.)

Hi Bart, Asset offers most recently added albums and tracks. It's under Playlists/New Albums and Playlists/New Tracks.

This feature is as you suggest not yet implemented in MinimServer, which is a shame.

Simon

Hi nbpf. J River Media Center most certainly allows you to add your own tags, and use them for browsing and searching. They can be simple data fields, or more complex fields using JRivers powerful expression language (which includes regular expressions). You get the option of storing the tags with your files, or just in JRivers own (very fast) database. You can use all of these tags for browsing, searching (there is a powerful search wizard) and building views. Tags with multiple values are supported. JRiver also has a DLNA server capability for which the views are also similarly configurable. It should then just be down to your chosen control point to view your data in the way you choose.  Give it a shot! Takes a bit of getting your head round because it has so many features, but worth it. 

Very good point likesmusic. I have mentioned Jriver in my reply to jmtennapel but I have completely forgotten that Jriver can also be run as a DLNA server. Blame me!

Do you know of Jriver control points that can take advantage of the Media Center searching and browsing capabilities? Can one run the Jriver DLNA server on the UnitiServe? Could Jriver be an option for the system (NAS, US, NDS) envisaged by the OP?

I cannot answer these questions on the basis of first-hand experience. Although you pointed out that Jriver does actually support user-definable search keys already in previous threads, I have to admit that I have not managed since then to try it. This is of course my own fault and the only justification I have for it is that Jriver only runs on Windows OSs. Now, I definitely do not want my dedicated music server to be based on Windows OSs. I am not arguing that Windows is a bad OS for music servers. The CAPS servers are finally based on Windows OSs! But it is just that, for me, working with Windows OS is a nightmare which I try to avoid whenever I can. Moreover, I want the OS running on my music server to be as lightweight as possible. I can easily setup a minimal Debian system which runs headless, has virtually no services running in the background and runs without support for a windows manager or a desktop environment. But I do not know how to set up a similar system under Windows. Also, I want to be able to connect to the music server from remote locations via ssh and I want to be able to transfer files to and from the music server via rsync. This is easily done in a Unix environment.

But if the OP is comfortable with Windows, Jriver could indeed be a viable approach to avoid the shortcomings of the Naim software within a full-Naim hardware solution.

Thanks for all for your thoughts. To clarify, I'm not looking to tag or sort by detailed subcategories (e.g. "drummer"); I'm simply trying to understand what metadata is available via the existing Naim system (either the AMG download obtained at rip or the real-time Rovi accessed at playback), as well as to understand how I can sort my music via the Naim app(s) once it's ripped. So I will ask more specific questions (and hope to get very specific answers!).

Currently, my CDs are filed alphabetically in 7-8 major categories, e.g. rock, blues, jazz, country, bluegrass, classical, world, etc. as well as a pile of the newest things I've bought that haven't been "filed" yet. With the Naim server or streaming app, can I classify music into these (my own) major categories, including "NEW", and view the music in each category alphabetically by artist?

Ideally, I would like to be able to catalog and sort as described above. I would also like to be able to see the same information in the app as I see when I listen to a CD. This includes cover art, lyrics, and liner notes (songwriter, recording details, and musician details by track). Related to this list, what specifically does the Naim app access via AMG or Rovi, and if anyone knows, how does this compare to what's available in standalone music management applications, e.g. Roon? And for those who have mentioned being able to view the CD booklet electronically while listening to the ripped CD file, what is the source of the CD booklet data file?

I am not at all interested in any "computer-based" approach to all of this (and I do understand that a NAS drive and a UnitiServe are actually both computers in their own right), as these approaches are just too tweaky for me. I don't want to tinker or tweak, and first became attracted to taking this step when I read the NDS review in The Absolute Sound because it really touted not just extraordinary sound quality but also the elegance of the Naim-based solution and how all of the pieces fit together. That's appealing to me, but it's much less so if I can't at least sort my music the same way I do now and be able access the same information I have available now when I listen to music. If I can't, I'm just not there and may just continue to listen to my CDs (e.g. I don't want to feel like I need to go dig out a CD to read the liner notes when I'm streaming a rip of it). My question about Roon above is simply to understand how it compares to the Naim app(s) (and I note that it's not iOS-compatible yet), not because I want to put Minimserver on a NAS or computer and manage my music with it or that I want to manage my metadata with dBpoweramp. While those approaches may offer much greater flexibility, I'm just not ready for the brain damage that (to me, at least), comes with them. I just want the sound quality and elegance described in the TAS review of the NDS with the assurance that I can file and sort my collection the way I do now and access the same information I do now.

I greatly appreciate all of the information and suggestions but readily acknowledge that some are too "advanced" for me. I have a lot of music and just want to be able to access it and enjoy it digitally in much the same way I do now, but with the convenience of iOS control and "instant" access. And most importantly, of course, even (considerably) better sound quality than I enjoy now with my CDX2 as I move to an NDS/555PS/US SSD.

Again, thanks to all. I'm learning a lot here.

Hi Mostly Drummer

let me try and answer your questions as best as I am able.

To your first question, the answer is YES.

If you have a US to rip with, there are standard Genres you can use, but you can also add new Genres if you do not find one that fits for you.

This can all be done via n-Serve app using iPad/iPod/i-Phone, and its a real pleasure to use, super easy.

To your next point, this is what I tried to explain in my last post.

When you rip, US/n-Serve will pull information from the database as follows:- track details,Album, Artist, Genre, Record Label, Release Date, Performer, Composer, Musicians, Engineers, Producers etc.

You can edit Track/Artist/Album/Genre names.

And it pulls the CD cover art - note, only the cover art, not the booklet.

So now you play this on your NDS, what do you get in the Naim App?

You get possibility to view by Album/Artist/Playlist/Genre/Track/Composer/Performer/Newest CDs/Last Played/Top20

And when you select the album to play youve just ripped, you get Cover Art (cover only) and Track Listing.

You also get a link to the Rovi database (its all integrated 'in App') which gives you details about the album, reviews, artist details, discography etc.

As I mentioned, its not perfect, but it just depends how much info you need.

Google Rovi Music and you will get the idea of what its all about.

But as I mentioned, this is NOT the actual liner notes and CD booklet.

I dont know if Roon does this, or how nbpf does this, but for me I get all the info I need via the App, and if I need more I just use the iPad (eg for lyrics, additional artist info etc).

2 more points for you Mostly Drummer.

You say that you wont be interested in NAS options, but by default digitising your music collection you will have to to ensure you have back ups.

If you go US SSD, there is no on board storage which means you have to have a NAS to feed music to it in the first place.

And that is only 1 storage location.

It would be advisable to keep at least 1 back up too, meaning 2 storage locations.

I have a non SSD version US with 2TB storage.

The hard drive will fail, thats what hard drives do in the end.

I automate my Back Ups to my NAS 1x per week. (this is easy to do via the Desk Top Client - do it once then forget about it)

That gives me 2 copies of the ripped data.

I also have another copy just in case.

Finally regarding DB Poweramp and fiddling with metadata.

If you will in future download any Hi-Res music to play via your NDS, I guarantee you will have to fiddle with metadata in something like DB Poweramp.

The reason for this is that there is no standard metadata in downloads from different download sites.

Of course only minor tweaking needed with CD rips to the US, but metadata of downloads cannot be adjusted via n-Serve, only via your PC or MAC.

It sounds a hassle, but once your CD collection is ripped, new CDs take a few minutes to rip and without further ado, they are ready to play.

And downloads, when I buy them, they might take 10 or 15 minutes to sort out and paste into the right directories for my set up, but its not like Im buying that many as to make it a big deal.

Hopefully this helps?

(where are you based by the way, North America? Do you have a good dealer not too far away?)

Go visit a Naim dealer and try it all out yourselves. That is the best way to asses if it is good enough for you.

The Rovi information can be accessed at play time. There is a booklet icon in the 'now playing' screen, clicking on it, the App will retrieve the information from the Rovi database. It is not as good as the booklet of the cd, far less detailed.

As for classifying: you can use the 'genre' tag for that. But I don't know what the UnitiServe does with the genre tag, so I'd ask a specific question about that or search the forum for UnitiServe threads.

Heres a couple of screen shots from the Naim App (streaming app, not n-Serve) to give you an idea:-

Categories:

After selecting an album:-

and here is the opening page of the Rovi link (accessed by the little 'book' icon top right hand side when in Album view:

All green text are hyperlinks to take you to more information.

Clicking on the Artist gets you to the Discography and you can also access the album details of other albums by the artist, or indeed from other artists.

This might give you an idea what it does and doesnt show I hope.

As Chis says, if you are getting the Serve SSD you need a nas to store the music. The serve is a fantastic ripper, and you can edit the metadata via the nServe app. But - you cannot edit the metadata of downloads with nServe, and if you want to use hires 24 bit downloads, you will need to manage them with your computer. I would think long and hard about the merits of spending £2,400 on the serve, as installing dbpoweramp on your laptop will give you everything a serve gives you. 

nbpf - you'd probably be best checking out the JRiver forum. There's a Linux section, the developers are decent guys and will often answer a question personally and quickly. They definitely have a Linux distribution which can be run headless with a variety of control points - indeed, they sell an Intel NUC preinstalled with JRiver under Linux which they call an Id, and which can be used as a DLNA control point or server. Other folk have it running on Raspberry Pi's etc. I'm pretty sure you can stream from JRiver remotely too. They also have a version running under iOS. I can understand your aversion to Windows! 

Mostly Drummer, you are raising two distinct questions:

1) Can I classify music into these major categories, including "NEW" with the Naim server or streaming app?

2) Can I view the music in each category alphabetically by artist?

I cannot provide qualified answers since I am not actively using the Naim app or the UnitiServe software and, ad I mentioned, there is no (I could not find any) detailed documentation for these programs.

But I would very much expect the answer to 1) to be positive because no user-specific customization is involved in what you want to do. Associating (one or more of) the values rock, blues, jazz, country, bluegrass, classical, world or NEW to the (certainly supported) GENRE key (category, tag, etc.) is the most elementary functionality supported by any tagging program. I would be very surprised if the ripping and tagging software running on the UnitiServe would not support such functionality. At the same time, I would not expect (and find it meaningful for) the new Naim app to support tagging. As far as I have understood (and, again, with the caveat that most apps running on Apple's iPad and iPhone -- the Naim app being no exception -- come with virtually no precise description of the functionalities they are meant to implement), the Naim app is primarily designed to control streaming. In my understanding, this encompasses searching a music collection, selecting the files to be played, building and storing playlists, controlling replay, accessing internet streaming services and metadata information, etc. But not necessarily tagging. Tagging is one task of organizing (in contrast to replaying) a music collection and should be better supported, in my view, by separate software. 

I would expect the answer to 2) also to be positive: even the most basic MPD clients support listing all files of a collection in which the value(s) of GENRE match a specific value (rock, for instance) by the values of another key, e.g., ARTIST, alphabetically.

Sorry for the non definitive answers. You will get more qualified assessments from users of the UnitiServe software and of the Naim app.