NDS Quest and More Metadata/Tagging Questions

Posted by: Mostly Drummer on 08 October 2015

Continuing on my quest for understanding with the goal of buying an NDS, 555PS, US and NAS so I can digitize my CDs, I have some related questions about metadata, etc. and the potential limitations of both the Naim app and WAV files.  

 

First, the Naim app. My understanding is that it pulls AMG info down from the internet, and that Rovi information is available in real time while music is playing. How good is this?

 

For example, if I have ripped Steely Dan's "Gaucho" CD, would I be able to see in the Naim app that Jeff Porcaro plays drums on the song "Gaucho" and Bernard Purdie plays drums on the song "Babylon Sisters"? Or is this additional information only available with "deeper" apps like Roon? I've looked at the online version of AMG before to get album credits, and often it just lists everyone who plays a given instrument on the album vs. detailing by song.

 

And is the entire CD art available as a "scan" or other image of the original art?

 

Similarly, for organizing a collection, would I be limited to just a few categories, or can I set up categories as I wish and create a tag or multiple tags for an album accordingly? For example, would I be limited to "jazz," or could I create tags for "Latin jazz," "straight ahead jazz," etc.? And can you create broader categories and subcategories and sort accordingly? For example, can you tags 100 albums as jazz and sub-tag 80 as straight-ahead and 20 as Latin, so you can search all 100 as jazz or only search 80 as straight-ahead? I've heard classical listeners talk about the limitations of the Naim app as relates to sorting their collections, so I'm trying to understand exactly where the limitations lie.

 

Finally, if I rip my CDs as WAV files, how much of the above is preserved in the Naim metadata sidecar, i.e. would some of this only be available in the Naim app if I had ripped to FLAC or another format that more readily supports metadata?

 

Thank you!

Posted on: 11 October 2015 by nbpf
Originally Posted by likesmusic:

nbpf - you'd probably be best checking out the JRiver forum. There's a Linux section, the developers are decent guys and will often answer a question personally and quickly. They definitely have a Linux distribution which can be run headless with a variety of control points - indeed, they sell an Intel NUC preinstalled with JRiver under Linux which they call an Id, and which can be used as a DLNA control point or server. Other folk have it running on Raspberry Pi's etc. I'm pretty sure you can stream from JRiver remotely too. They also have a version running under iOS. I can understand your aversion to Windows! 

Very interesting likesmusic, thanks for the information! I was not aware there is a Linux port, I will definitely check it. Best, nbpf

Posted on: 11 October 2015 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Mostly Drummer:
standalone music management applications, e.g. Roon? And for those who have mentioned being able to view the CD booklet electronically while listening to the ripped CD file, what is the source of the CD booklet data file?

If you buy music from, e.g., qobuz, Hyperion or PrestoClassical, you will in most cases get a booklet with your music data. You download the booklet (usually as .pdf file) together with the music data (usually in .flac, .wav, .aiff according to your choice) and the cover art. I store booklets and cover art in the same directory in which I store the .flac (.wav, .aiff) data. You can download booklets from Hyperion even if you do not buy music data for free, the link to an album's booklet is usually just under the album cover on the upper left corner when you visit one of their album webpages. There are certainly other sources but I have never cared to search fo them. Best, nbpf

 

Posted on: 11 October 2015 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Mostly Drummer:
I am not at all interested in any "computer-based" approach to all of this (and I do understand that a NAS drive and a UnitiServe are actually both computers in their own right), as these approaches are just too tweaky for me. I don't want to tinker or tweak, and first became attracted to taking this step when I read the NDS review in The Absolute Sound because it really touted not just extraordinary sound quality but also the elegance of the Naim-based solution and how all of the pieces fit together. That's appealing to me, but it's much less so if I can't at least sort my music the same way I do now and be able access the same information I have available now when I listen to music. If I can't, I'm just not there and may just continue to listen to my CDs (e.g. I don't want to feel like I need to go dig out a CD to read the liner notes when I'm streaming a rip of it). My question about Roon above is simply to understand how it compares to the Naim app(s) (and I note that it's not iOS-compatible yet), not because I want to put Minimserver on a NAS or computer and manage my music with it or that I want to manage my metadata with dBpoweramp. While those approaches may offer much greater flexibility, I'm just not ready for the brain damage that (to me, at least), comes with them. I just want the sound quality and elegance described in the TAS review of the NDS with the assurance that I can file and sort my collection the way I do now and access the same information I do now.

My caveat is that UnitiServe (Vortexbox, RipNas, Baetis, ...) are all doing a pretty good job at simplifying and automatizing the process of ripping, tagging and storing data. But this simplification (as every simplification) comes at a price: if you are happy with what you get by default, it's fine. Otherwise, you might find out that these solutions lack the flexibily and configurability you need. Or you might be perfectly satisfied with the degree of customizability they offer. It depends both on you and on the specific solution. ChrisH points out that metadata of downloads cannot be adjusted via n-Serve. I understand why this is the case but, to me, this is an unacceptable consequence of the UnitiServe software. For me, it would be a dealbreaker but it does not have to bother you necessarily. You seem to be attracted by the idea of an "elegant" solution which would integrate and simplify the processes of acquiring, organizing, managing and replaying music data in a seamless tool. I tend to associate this notion of elegance rather with glossy brochures or poor reviews than with real processes. My experience is that elegant solutions are rarely obtained from integrated, monolithic approaches. Ripping CDs or buying .wav or .flac data, tagging and organizing a music collection and enjoying a well organized library of musical data are quite diverse activities. They are better approached with careful study, separation of concerns and by combining open and highly flexible tools designed for small, specific tasks. My concrete suggestion is that you take some time to do three things:

 

1) Go through the whole process of ripping, tagging, storing and replaying 10 of your CDs at a Naim dealer and using the UnityServe, a NAS and the NDS. Bring the data back home.

 

2) Rip 5 CD with your laptop and using standard programs: dbPoweramp under Windows, for instance. Then buy 5 albums from well known music providers: qobuz or Hyperion, for instance. Organize the 10 albums in a small collection by choosing names for folders and files that fit your notion of a music collection.

 

3) Compare the processes 1) and 2) and their outcomes.

 

Posted on: 11 October 2015 by nbpf
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:

As Chis says, if you are getting the Serve SSD you need a nas to store the music. The serve is a fantastic ripper, and you can edit the metadata via the nServe app. But - you cannot edit the metadata of downloads with nServe, and if you want to use hires 24 bit downloads, you will need to manage them with your computer. I would think long and hard about the merits of spending £2,400 on the serve, as installing dbpoweramp on your laptop will give you everything a serve gives you. 

I have thought long and hard and I have not bought a US. But, to be fair, it has a much better S/PDIF output than a standard laptop. The funny thing is, very few US owners seem to use it to feed a Naim DAC. 

Posted on: 11 October 2015 by Bart
Originally Posted by nbpf:
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:

As Chis says, if you are getting the Serve SSD you need a nas to store the music. The serve is a fantastic ripper, and you can edit the metadata via the nServe app. But - you cannot edit the metadata of downloads with nServe, and if you want to use hires 24 bit downloads, you will need to manage them with your computer. I would think long and hard about the merits of spending £2,400 on the serve, as installing dbpoweramp on your laptop will give you everything a serve gives you. 

I have thought long and hard and I have not bought a US. But, to be fair, it has a much better S/PDIF output than a standard laptop. The funny thing is, very few US owners seem to use it to feed a Naim DAC. 

I started that way, using the UnitiServe into the Naim DAC/XPS2 via a DC-1 cable.  I wanted a second system, and an upgrade, and to move all of my internet and server-associated hardware to another part of the home, so changed up and started using the uServe as a UPnP server.  You're right -- the s/pdif output of the uServe is far better than the run-of-the-mill audio from a PC.

Posted on: 11 October 2015 by Mostly Drummer

Thanks very much to all, and especially to Chris H for taking the time to post the screen shots.

 

To clarify, I am aware that the US SSD requires a NAS for storage. I thought I had mentioned that above, but it might have been in another thread. I appreciate the clarification re: still needing something to manage the metadata for downloads. I hadn't gotten that far so hadn't considered that at all.

 

I think I've concluded that the Naim approach to managing music and metadata will work for my needs and it will certainly satisfy my interest in a relatively simple and elegant solution that minimizes tinkering. That leaves SQ, which is my primary concern, but based on the reviews I've read (all glowingly positive), comments on this forum (generally very positive, with the notable exception of a few who have chosen Chord DACs or Linn players and prefer their sounds), and my own experience listening to the NDS, I believe the SQ of the NDS and related gear will more than meet my needs (as it certainly should), and the tradeoff of an elegant all-Naim solution (which for me will make life much simpler) is worth it even if I'm giving up a slight bit of sound quality (or certain aspects of sound quality that might be perceived by some as better than the NDS even though the NDS may be better for other aspects) that might be available with other approaches. There are lots of highly-regarded boxes out there that combine the various functions needed for me to take this step in a variety of ways, but many, at least at the level of the NDS, are from manufacturers much smaller than Naim that might or might not be around in five years and that might have very limited dealer support. I think Naim ties it all together for me, and it seems the combination of SQ, user experience, and manufacturer/dealer support are optimized for me with Naim and the NDS, etc.

 

I also concluded that while I might be able to top the NDS in aspects of sound quality (which I might or might not be able to compare at home), if I don't buy the NDS, I will continue to wonder whether it would have been the best solution, so I think the answer is to buy the NDS, get my music digitized, and enjoy it immensely for a few years while I get used to living in a digital music world. I can't imagine I won't enjoy it just that much as my system already sounds fantastic, and an NDS w/555PS is a substantial source upgrade to my CDX2 with no PS. If something truly tops the NDS a few years down the road, I'll cross that bridge then, and if I decide to move outside of Naim, I'll just have to take the time to adjust my WAV-based metadata from the Naim sidecars to a format that works outside of Naim.

 

Thanks again to all for your patience and great information.

Posted on: 11 October 2015 by ChrisH

No problem Mostly Drummer.

Im sure you wont be disappointed.

The all Naim solution is really straightforward, thats what gave me the comfort to move 100% to streaming in the first place.

 

Some start that way and once the collection is ripped and they are comfortable with the process they then move on to other ripping / storage solutions.

Im still happy with the US solution though.

 

One other point to mention, should you ever get to that stage.

There is the possibility to rip to FLAC and transcode on the fly to WAV so that the NDS will be processing/playing WAV (as opposed to rip to WAV, play WAV).

This can be done in the settings of the US (or indeed in most NAS/PC based UPnP servers).

By doing this, your ripped library back up will be available and readable immediately outside of Naim.

So it could make sense to do this from the beginning if you do buy a US/NDS

When I had a Sonos I did notice though that the Naim rips in WAV were readable by the Sonos inftastructure, but if you are looking at SQ Im sure this isnt a route you would ever take!

 

Hope this helps, look forward to reading where you head with this.

Posted on: 11 October 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Mostly Drummer, some comments, the NDS is a great source, and I find as you go up the source hierarchy the sources have less of a 'sound' or less colour. The NDS is a prime example of this.

The same is for DACs like Hugo ... The NDS, Hugo and, to some extent, NDAC allow you to listen deep into the music and recording and appreciate musical nuance and cueues that you would otherwise miss... You will recognize it when you experience it..   I have owned/borrowed all of these in my system. But remember you need the amplification to allow this goodness through.

The CDX2 is another truly great source, but this source does have a 'sound' and is slightly coloured. It is great fun to listen to and I now keep my CDX2 in my system to enjoy discs that I think occasionally sound best this way.. Think of it like a Juke box.... But you will find it very different from NDS / Hugo / NDAC etc. Sometimes discs seem to need a bit of colour in the replay to match the mood you are in  so what I am saying is .. If you get a DAC/Streamer do still keep that CDX2.. I suspect you will miss it otherwise.

Simon

 

Posted on: 12 October 2015 by timster

I use asset upnp server and with it you can create your own custom tags and have them appear in the naim app ( I have added my own custom tag "Quality" to separate hd downloads from cd and mp3 files.) So yes, you can create a tag with whatever values you want without being limited to the existing tags or having to re-purpose another. Of course, being custom means you have to maintain the tag and values whenever ripping...

 

 

Posted on: 12 October 2015 by nbpf
Originally Posted by timster:

I use asset upnp server and with it you can create your own custom tags and have them appear in the naim app ( I have added my own custom tag "Quality" to separate hd downloads from cd and mp3 files.) So yes, you can create a tag with whatever values you want without being limited to the existing tags or having to re-purpose another. Of course, being custom means you have to maintain the tag and values whenever ripping...

Thanks timster! I have asset running on my laptop for testing. Could you please explain how to add a key, say LALA, to the defailt ALBUM, ARTIST, etc. ones? Thanks, nbpf

Posted on: 12 October 2015 by timster

nbpf:

Here you go --

 

Steps for music files:

1. add the tag LALA and tag values as appropriate e.g. LALA=HIGHDEF

 

Steps for  asset:

1. Edit file DatabaseFieldsv5.txt (if you are running asset under a local account you will find this in the hidden location C:\Users\MY_USER_NAME\AppData\Roaming\dBpoweramp\uMediaLibrary substituting MY_USER_NAME with your local account user name)
2. Add to the end the new tag e.g. LALA,0,NVARCHAR(20)
3. save and exit
4. Run Asset Configuration and "Edit" the advanced settings
5. Add new container as a child of root to the browse tree; Edit selected name LALA
6. Check "No Track Listing" (leave "A to Z" unchecked)
7. Add new container as a child of LALA; Choose "Artist / Album" from the select list
8. Check "No Track Listing" and "A to Z"
9. Add new container as a child of "Artist / Album"; Choose "Album" from the select list
10. Uncheck "No Track Listing" and "A to Z"
11. Click ok and re-scan the library
That's it

In the naim app you should now see LALA as a sibling of Album etc. It should contain the unique values assigned to the tag e.g. "HIGHDEF" etc.

 

Good luck!

 

FYI: There is a document on the asset forum to do this but I had to bug**r around with the subcontainers  and their settings to finally get it to display the albums to my satisfaction.

 

Posted on: 12 October 2015 by nbpf
Originally Posted by timster:

nbpf:

Here you go --

 

Steps for music files:

1. add the tag LALA and tag values as appropriate e.g. LALA=HIGHDEF

 

Steps for  asset:

1. Edit file DatabaseFieldsv5.txt (if you are running asset under a local account you will find this in the hidden location C:\Users\MY_USER_NAME\AppData\Roaming\dBpoweramp\uMediaLibrary substituting MY_USER_NAME with your local account user name)
2. Add to the end the new tag e.g. LALA,0,NVARCHAR(20)
3. save and exit
4. Run Asset Configuration and "Edit" the advanced settings
5. Add new container as a child of root to the browse tree; Edit selected name LALA
6. Check "No Track Listing" (leave "A to Z" unchecked)
7. Add new container as a child of LALA; Choose "Artist / Album" from the select list
8. Check "No Track Listing" and "A to Z"
9. Add new container as a child of "Artist / Album"; Choose "Album" from the select list
10. Uncheck "No Track Listing" and "A to Z"
11. Click ok and re-scan the library
That's it

In the naim app you should now see LALA as a sibling of Album etc. It should contain the unique values assigned to the tag e.g. "HIGHDEF" etc.

 

Good luck!

 

FYI: There is a document on the asset forum to do this but I had to bug**r around with the subcontainers  and their settings to finally get it to display the albums to my satisfaction.

 

Thanks a lot for the detailed instructions, I very much appreciate! Best, nbpf