Tidal is available in the US, UK and several other countries ...

Ask a computer specialist... he should help you.

The use of proxy avoidance, ip tunnelling etc. for virtual locations is deemed as highly illegal  in this part of the world.

It is illegal in some parts of the world, but is common practice in many others. For countries where VPNs are totally legal and support thriving businesses like in the EU, US, etc just reach out to a computer enthusiast .. Plenty of them found on other fora.

But to bear in mind L2P and/or encrypted tunnels will lower the effective throughput, and so performance might not support the throughput required for lossless streaming. You may also be of course in breach of the terms and conditions of the service you are using via the tunnel/proxy.

Simon

Yes, I know all that... we have a number of ip tools over here that would do that stuff within miliseconds.

But my concern is that it does not make sense to have a fairly expensive hifi, supposedly fit for use world wide, with some of its key features effectively available only to select regions.

And no explicit mention of that in Naim's Tidal advertising.  

VPNs are very easy to use and work reasonably well with providers that restrict access based on location.

Dzambolaja,  I just don't get the logic... What has that got to do with Naim? If some of the countries that Naim sell to support a service surely there is no harm in offering a capability to support it for those Naim customers. DAB is not available in all parts of the world, so are you saying Naim shouldn't provide a DAB receiver at all just because some of Naim's customers do not have DAB in their countries?

Nothing wrong from Naim, per se, but they use considerable resources for developing services that are of limited use given the spread of their customers worldwide.

They could have teamed up with other, more lax content providers.  Like Qobuz, for example

They surely are but from the legal perspective this could get you some serious problems in the Middle East, most of Asia and few other regions instantly.  

And as Simon mentions, the providers would be far from happy if copyrights are compromised

Lobby Naim to add Deezer. As I understand it the Sonos Deezer Elite exclusive ends next month. I don't know where you are but at first glance I can see the UAE, Kuwait, Oman, Saudi Arabia and Qatar on the list. http://developers.deezer.com/guidelines/countries

Spotify and Deezer have the best geographical reach, but only Deezer offers a CD quality service at this time.

+1 x100

Yes Deezer iz available here. And so is Qobuz, I get hires downloads with their subscription.

 But the idea to lobby is not a bad one! 

well... Tidal is available in my country whereas Qobuz is not...(i would like to add "yet")

We probably won't have too long to find out. Qobuz was granted bankruptcy protection towards the end of August 2014. In France you are entitled to a maximum of 18 months, which means their future should become clearer in the next 4-5 months.

Greg, for as long as I can remember we have been hearing Qobuz is going bankrupt, and instead it keeps on growing and expanding... I am not sure such comments have much credibility at least with me.. I am more worried about Tidal which seems to have a lot of gloom and doom and imminent demise discussed of it.. and I suspect Tidal we carry on growing as well... Now we might see a merger or two.. But that is different.

Simon

Indeed.   My understanding is that from a financial perspective  qobuz is quite the startup - so it's burning money and needs regular funding rounds.  That would be just "normal" if it was based in Silicon Valley, but not so much in the 19 arondissement.  More of an underlying issue is the breadth (or otherwise) of the funding partners. 

But Tidal - while having a wider pool of existing founders that can be tapped - isn't really any better since that pool has quite a few who are really only in it for the lolz and may prove fickle

Its inevitable that the market sees all the streaming companies as consolidation-to-come by one means or another.  With potentially some wild cards depending how the big recording companies play it.

The way I see it Simon & Slioch is that audio streaming is a new developing "idea" & not as yet a structured business model.  Each & every streaming service is feeling their way in a  marketplace that is changing from a mature structured type into restructuring & change & I expect there will be both casualties & restructuring for a few more years yet.  The change I am referring to,   caused in part by the emergence of the streaming services,  is the state of change in the whole recording industry:  The leading record companies of a few years ago are now 2nd fiddle to iTunes, Apple Music, Google & a bunch of others.  The general free for all & no decisions on future plans for copyright & copying , a decline in sales of recorded material of all types, loss of/or reduced royalties, artists going direct & bypassing the old infrastructures.  ......  & it goes on & on ........

Tidal is a deep in trouble if (BIG IF) you believe all your read, sign writers can't keep up with the name changes on the CEO's rotating door .......

Deezer is looking for cash, either as an investment or a partner, is that a positive sign for growth or the first signs of a crash.   

Qobuz is in "Chapter 11" - well it was, but whats happening now ??

Personally I see a brighter future for Qobuz rather than Tidal,  unless that is the Tidal owner(s) get back to their rapping & recording & leave it to professional managers. I'm betting on Deezer for the long haul.  (thats my kiss of death) 

All this has left the streaming services playing a game with maybe the wrong ball. 

Just to make myself perfectly clear I'm not suggesting Qobuz will go bankrupt. But we shouldn't kid ourselves.

- In the summer of 2014 the business went in to bankruptcy protection with debt it could not finance.

- The court gave the company 6 months to demonstrate it could refinance itself.

- The company laid off 20% of the workforce.

- The court extended bankruptcy protection for a further 12 months.

- The founder has clearly stated he is seeking EUR 11m to refinance the business.

- 18 months is the total time a business can be in bankruptcy protection.

What I am suggesting is that in the next 4-5 months we will finally get some clarity on the future of the business.

Af far as my opinion is concerned I see a few potential outcomes: Qobuz

- Finds a buyer and is able to refinance it's debt.

- The creditors ask for the business to be put in to administration and a receiver tries to sell the business and or it's assets.

-  The founder Yves Riesel; also a creditor, buys relevant assets and with the debt written off starts again.

- The business goes bankrupt, debts unpaid.

I think it's perfectly reasonable that until there is clarity on the above, Naim have chosen to launch with Tidal*. @Simon-in-Suffolk, you might be right about Tidal long term, in fact I think you probably are, but at least for now the business is funded. Qobuz is not.

Personally I hope the Qobuz finds a backer and thrives. I previously subscribed for 12 months and was very happy.

*The guys over at Roon estimated that Tidal integration cost them over USD 500K.

On the broader market I agree with a lot of what's been said. Streaming needs scale, time to grow and deep pockets. What is unclear is if streaming can be a profitable stand alone business when your fixed costs are above 80% and two of the bigest players; Apple and Google/YouTube, can run the business at a loss, because it enhances their existing products are services.

Deezer hopes to raise EUR 1bn when it IPO's this year or early next. The success of that IPO will tell us a lot about just how viable the stand alone streaming business really is.

In the meantime the record companies are playing each service off against the other and raking in all the investor cash. It might be simpler if the investors just wired the money directly to the record companies!

Your point about streaming as a standalone business is interesting. We know Qobuz has diversified, and much of its business is a download retail business now.

Simon

"Welcome! Are you based in United States? Qobuz is not available for your country. Leave your email address and we will keep you updated of any progress."

To control supply and fix prices. You can travel to any record shop in the world, buy something and take it home. It's only if you want it sent, downloaded or streamed that all these pretend legalities magically crop up. DVD regional coding anyone? It should have been stamped out at birth. End users, the people who actually take the time and spend the money are not legally bound by agreements between producers and distributes. You'd think we are. But we are not.

I am sorry but you are very wrong on this one.  Who on Earth could have anticipated a few years back that in 2015 Naim would introduce new streaming service that would be region-limited? Should those living outside of UK US EU etc just ditch out Naim as the risk management measure against the future uncertainties?

I would say nup...

But this is , again, not my point.

What I think Naim should have done was to, in all fairness, put a disclaimer on their Tidal advertising, such as "... This service may not be available if you are not located in ....."

That would have been fair. 

I have never expected Naim to provide any additional streaming service beyond that that was available at the time of purchase and any such attempt is really a nice bonus.

But I do complain about wasting the time to install new firmware (which by the way magically worsened the SQ (?!) ).

Naim could have spent that development time, money and resources better on enabling full digital input on USB and target/slave mode on their streamers (for example), thus eliminate the need for USB/spdif converters and leave it to our phones, pads, comps etc to handle internet services - which they have become more capable of, with all respect.