Question about sound (please be kind)...

Cables are Linn K20. The speakers are sitting on a tv unit, and the UQ2 is sitting on a sideboard across the room. I know stands are ideal, but not practical for me. 

" not just from boxes is a great system made" as Yoda would say..

It looks like a pretty hostile environment that your kit has been asked to perform in. No wonder your getting less performance than you were hoping for.

thanks for that. 

Getting some Naca5 cable and speaker stands should improve and bring out the midrange more, you could look into ways of mounting the speakers on the wall with a decent adjustable bracket.

cheers

I have wired speakers out of phase in the past and I did not find the results that alarming.

There was more detail and atmosphere but less focus to the sound including, if I remember rightly, recessed vocals as JN stated.

ATB Ray

That can definitely add a degree of unpredictability to the sound (in many ways, not just vocals) as the vibration from the speakers will interact with the TV unit.  Just adding acoustic isolation between them isn't the answer either as then the speaker boxes move too much.  The best I can suggest is to get some large mass (a slab of granite, marble or concrete), put that under the speakers (with small blobs of Bluetack to hold and couple the speakers) and then put Sorbathane isolating feet between the mass and the TV cabinet.  If you have to have the speakers on the cabinet this will improve things somewhat.

It's also possible for room reflections to cause odd effects as well, particularly if the room is quite small.

Andy

One does wonder a bit whether one of the speakers is internally mis-wired.....

Anyway it is east to check.  Play a mono signal, for example a lot of radio 4 speech on DAB is mono, and if the speakers are in phase you will find you can easily identify the point where the sound is coming from and it will be between the speakers, moving about smoothly as you move your head. If out of phase, the sound will tend to come from both loudspeakers or jump from one to the other as you move your head and sound sort of more diffused.  This can be disarmingly attractive at a quick listen. But anyway if you do this, swap one of the speaker connections and repeat, you should easily identify the difference

Another way is to play a track with some really deep bass.  When in phase the bass should be much stronger than when the speakers are out of phase.  Again swapping one speaker over should show up the difference.

I get that you are stuck with the positioning you have at present, so some of the advice you have been given in this stream won't help you much. My own experience of stand mount speakers is that they really prefer not having anything immediately under them, other than a stand. You could try lifting them up from your TV rack by a few inches and see if that helps.  I have used (unopened) cans of baked beans as temporary supports for that purpose in the past. What this may do is to reduce the output at the bottom end and that brings the mid-range out more as you increase the volume to get the overall sound at the loudness you want. This would be quicker and easier to try than wall-mounting, although I agree that if the room suits it, wall-mounting can work well, but it is important not to have the speakers too close to the wall, so commercial wall mount stands may not be suitable.

i hope this helps

best

David

I've got the speakers on Sorbathane feet too - not sure if it makes any difference. 

I will try putting them out of phase, just in case - but I guess I came to ask if it's normal - which it ought not to be - so that's fine and it's up to me to find the sweet spot. thanks. 

I found sorbothane under speakers to be detrimental when I had stand mounts (many moons ago).

I have also come across a pair speakers that had the bass units wired correctly in phase,  but the tweeter was cross wired & out of phase.  It was easy enough to diagnose as the speaker had bi-wire terminals.  Not sure how to do that with your Motive SX3's as they are not bi-wireable - or are they ???

Checking bass for correct (foolproof - no guesswork) pair phasing is easy if you use a 1.5v battery (AA) 

Connect battery positive to speaker positive & neg to neg  - then observe the direction the driver cone moves (in or out).  Do the same on the other speaker & it should move in the same direction = correctly phased.

Unfortunately you can't do the same for the tweeter.  But at least you will know 100% for sure the bass units are in phase. 

I also struggled my system  with your same issues and it was all mainly due to bad termination at the speaker end, but also at the amplifier end of the NACA 5 cable.

I would check the soldering of both ends with a dealer, and resolder if needed.

Expect the system to sound sub-optimal for a few days after the resoldering. 

+1

Sorbathane (or any other compliant material) without a high mass base coupled to the speaker, is usually very detrimental.

worse than if both speakers were placed atop the same surface? is there something more suitable I could place between the speaker and the surface? 

how would you diagnose bad termination? like as in if its hanging on by a thread?

I think it is there in the FAQ section, there are pictures

The surface of the solder should be bright (rather than dull) and it should have flowed freely into contact with the wire and plug pin (rather than having balled on the surface).

See the last three in this

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...-andamp-f-connection

That depends on the surface.

If you don't use rigid non-resonant stands, then the best answer is to use an intermediary high mass / high density non-resonant plinth to reduce the cabinet movement of the speakers.  Granite or concrete slabs are usually the recommended solution.

Placing speakers directly on a resonant cabinet is just asking for odd effects from the resonances.  Placing speakers directly on a compliant supports doesn't secure the speaker positionally, allowing it to rock on it's mounting and is also just asking for odd effects.

well they're placed on what's probably walnut veneered MDF. 

Im not going to get anywhere with this really, because I can't use stands and have to play with the cards I've been dealt. I appreciate your input. 

Just try buying some cheap dense concrete blocks (not aerated cement or cinder blocks).

Put a tea towel on the top of the cabinet, put the concrete block on the tea towel and use four blobs of blue tack to attach the speaker to the concrete (make the blobs just big enough to protect the speaker cabinet).  Cheap, simple to try and may well improve your problem.

If it doesn't improve, then your biggest problem is probably the size and shape of the room.

I know what you're saying about it being a temporary solution to highlight / solve the problem - but it wouldn't be a long term aesthetic choice! 

I wonder what would be - a polished granite tile perhaps? 

Plenty of people here have had plenty of ideas to solve some hifi problem without throwing big money at it, in the past I have had sleepless nights thinking through such things , and I'm not embarrassed about it...one successful result was granite 3/4 inch slabs cut to size of speaker with three wooden cones underneath, (two at front and one behind ) looked nice and solved some issues.

Andy

I suggested some time ago that you listen to your system via headphones to see whether you are habituated to that presentation.  This is quick and easy to do and does not involve taking your speakers apart to look for dodgy wiring or to turn your house into a building site.

I wrote to Bob at Neat Acoustics - who made my speakers - and he's suggested some kind of foam things that are supposed to be good for beneath them. They're cheap enough to give it a go. 

Yeah I'm gonna try and figure out what it was that I played that really felt like it had the hole in the middle, and take it from there! Can't be too hard to figure out. 

Andy,

I doubt it’s the speaker positioning, my speakers are either side of a chimneybreast, surrounded by all sorts of clutter and the sound fine. I quite often buy vintage equipment and test it in my kitchen, turntable/amp on the oven, one speaker on the worktop and one speaker on the sink and I don’t experience low level vocals.

I’d look at the turntable setup. A few months ago, while my turntable PSU was out of action, I stripped the turntable down, reassembled and setup to what I thought was the correct geometry. It did not sound good, bass was OK, vocals where recessed and treble over emphasised. After spending a lot of time adjusting the suspension, I eventually got it sounding pretty good.

I don’t know what adjustments you can make to RP3, but it might be worth checking the geometry of the base, platter and arm.

Have the RP3 and cart checked at your dealer, reposition the speakers a lot.  Also make sure you wait several days between adjustments...you may find your mood has more to do with the sound sometimes.  If the mood is not right, on a given day, nothing you do will help it...I bet many upgrade thrashings about are driven by this fact.  Gotta wait until tomorrow, unfortunately.

The source makes all the difference (the record) IMO since I've started back into vinyl.  There is a huge variance in quality of every kind, shape and dimension.

I'm listening to a lot of Moody Blues lately and that is entirely different than other things I might listen to, I would happily say the vocals are further "back" in the music and certain instruments are far up front.  Putting on another record from another band will yield a completely different experience.

Some stuff sounds thin and metallic, and the voices pop and crackle when the chorus happens...some have lots of noise, some are inky black.

Given the nature of analog vs digital, I've had to take a scientific, or engineering approach to the turntable...locking down inconsistencies:  Top-end wall shelf, decent hifi rack for the rest, brand new Stageline w/ RCA (I had BNC with adapters), dealer configured turntable (there were some loose wires in my rp3 going to the cartridge causing inconsistencies).

The RCM also opened up a new world of sound...sound which was completely obliterated in some cases by dirt, grit and hair.  Some of the music sound is nearly ethereal or even impossible to hear, but is perceived...this type of magic was being completely covered by high noise floor.  As the volume goes up, and the voices go up in pitch (mixed with background harmony vocals) this constant clicking, popping and "noise" combines even more with the high pitched voices to cause pain to the listener...like fingernails on the chalkboard.

Lastly, NACA5 and Credo speaker really sealed the deal and I believe I can hear "it" now.  The Credo speakers released the music, and its free to roam all over room...the sound is not compressed into a narrow frequency "pellet" for me to hear.  At first it sounded "wooly" to me, especially a band like Moody Blues, but really its just more wide open, complex and free...more than I'm used to handling with my ears and brain. 

So I've build a consistent system, removed variables one-by-one.  I'm pretty impressed with the RP3/Elys now, and if the RP6/Exact is as good as they say it is...I'm afraid it may just kill me right there on the spot.