The Evolution of the NAP 250

Posted by: Alonso on 14 October 2015

I am considering upgrading my Nait XS, actually, using the pre-amp function of the XS and move to something heftier like a 250 for the power section (the end of the chain will be a pair of ATC SCM 40) In the future I could replace the XS all together and add a separate pre-amp but funds do not allow for that at the moment.

 

I've been following a few NAP250 auctions and the current (triptych-case) seems to go back to 2002 and when reading what people say about the amp I am never too sure what version they're making reference to

 

Could anybody explain to me the most important differences between the 250, the 250.2 and the DR? or even about any other 'versions' out there?

 

Thank you so much guys

 

Alonso

 

 

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by ianrobertm
Originally Posted by analogmusic:

Hi Ian,

 

in terms of the 72/140 compared to your 82/250, which one boogies more ?

 

sorry to hijack the thread 

@analogmusic - Oo-err...    Well, I have run combinations of all 4 - see this previous thread - Silly System. There are also numerous threads on the 72, what it does so well and how its sounds - @naim_nymph is a staunch 72 advocate - and long may she be so. 

 

My 140 has never ever been serviced but its a terrific little amp. The window isn't as wide open (as with a 250), but its a great view. It certainly does what it does, very well. The 250 just has more clout..!

 

Does this make any sense...?  Perhaps the 140 is a Porsche 914....?

 

 

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by bluedog
Originally Posted by Richard Dane:

Graham, well, the basic design is carried over; i.e. it's still a regulated power amplifier utilising Naim's own custom transistors.  The last of the Olive NAP250s moved to using NA007 transistors in the regulation stages, so those are also shared with the NAP250.2  Otherwise, yes, a new and much larger Tx, a move from NA001 to NA007 output devices, use of the temperature control hemispheres (the black lozenges) on the matched pairs, lifted resistors, different capacitors and lots of other little detail changes. As you say, it's a bit like when Porsche went from the 993 "911" to the 996 "911" - an easily identifiable evolution of the original, but mostly all new.

Richard

I had a full service on my 1989 250 (originally CB but re-cased to Olive) 18 months ago.  Just out of interest, to what extent would the "innards" have been updated?  It came back sounding like a new (extremely fine) amp.

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by Richard Dane

Bluedog, it depends on the extent of the service.  Normally it's caps, including the big reservoir caps, tants, Cannon XLR socket, and a few other bits that get changed and then the amp is adjusted, soaked, and then tested.  However, your service invoice should show if anything extra was required.

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by analogmusic

Hi Richard

 

what sonic effect did the resistor lift have on the  250.2 or indeed all the classic series of power amps?

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by Richard Dane
I never heard the original NAP500 before the application of the resistor lift. So impossible to give you my impressions of before and after. The reason behind doing it was, IIRC, because these resistors were particularly susceptible to microphonic effects. The "lift" with formed legs provided a kind of suspension and decoupling from the "sound board" of the PCB.
Posted on: 15 October 2015 by nigelb

Alonso,

 

I have gone from 200 with a 202, to a 282 first with a 250.2 now with a 250 DR during this went from Hicap to SupercapDR.

 

With a number of changes to pre amp, power amp and power supply it is a bit tricky to recall exactly what each upgrade in the power amp delivered. I do remember though making one change at a time and found each upgrade in power amp produced a very worthwhile improvement and certainly worth the additional cost.

 

In your case, I would certainly improve the pre amp side of things first before going to a 250 of what ever age, be it a stand alone pre or one buried in a streamer like the 272 for example.

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by Graham Clarke
Originally Posted by Richard Dane:

Graham, well, the basic design is carried over; i.e. it's still a regulated power amplifier utilising Naim's own custom transistors.  The last of the Olive NAP250s moved to using NA007 transistors in the regulation stages, so those are also shared with the NAP250.2  Otherwise, yes, a new and much larger Tx, a move from NA001 to NA007 output devices, use of the temperature control hemispheres (the black lozenges) on the matched pairs, lifted resistors, different capacitors and lots of other little detail changes. As you say, it's a bit like when Porsche went from the 993 "911" to the 996 "911" - an easily identifiable evolution of the original, but mostly all new.

Hmm, reminds me of the joke of someone saying they've had the same broom for 40 years and it's only had three new handles and four new brushes :-)

 

The 911 analogy is close to my heart given I drive a 997.2 turbo

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by b_lund
Originally Posted by Alonso:

Could anybody explain to me the most important differences between the 250, the 250.2 and the DR? or even about any other 'versions' out there?

 

Thank you so much guys

 

Alonso

 

 

I guess no one mentioned the bolt down (BD) Nap 250 (very early)

 

and the CB 250 vs Olive 250 had different manufacturing process

 

Also around 1992 trafo changed with different sound signature, so effectively several versions during the Olive period

 

so maybe 6-7 different Nap 250 ? during lifetime

 

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by b_lund
Originally Posted by analogmusic:

there are some good deals on older NAP 250, but after looking at these pictures, the 250 DR really seems much more capable an amplifier

Don't listen with your eyes only

 

Many Naimi'es prefer 250/135 era vs 250.2

DR untold

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by Donkeyhaute

Does anyone know if you can pay to 'DR' a CB NAP 250? From those internal shots, I'd guess not since the topography and components have altered so much. It would also cannibalise new sales, I'd guess.

 

 

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by hungryhalibut

I do. You can't.

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by Donkeyhaute

Natch. Thanks, HH. Well, in that case, I guess disposable funds will be aimed towards swapping the SU for an NAC-272. I think that and an old (serviced) 250 and the estimable Gurus should sound pretty beguiling. 

 

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by Donkeyhaute

By the Beard Of Toutatis. That's a gratuitous amount of guessing I've been doing. Call me Madame Sosostris. I charge by the disappointment.

 

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by analogmusic

is your CB250 improving the superuniti? something I have always been intrigued by. There was another thread where Frank Abela commented that the 250.2 added to a Uniti sounded very good.

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by sheffieldgraham
Originally Posted by Graham Clarke:
Originally Posted by Richard Dane:

Graham, well, the basic design is carried over; i.e. it's still a regulated power amplifier utilising Naim's own custom transistors.  The last of the Olive NAP250s moved to using NA007 transistors in the regulation stages, so those are also shared with the NAP250.2  Otherwise, yes, a new and much larger Tx, a move from NA001 to NA007 output devices, use of the temperature control hemispheres (the black lozenges) on the matched pairs, lifted resistors, different capacitors and lots of other little detail changes. As you say, it's a bit like when Porsche went from the 993 "911" to the 996 "911" - an easily identifiable evolution of the original, but mostly all new.

Hmm, reminds me of the joke of someone saying they've had the same broom for 40 years and it's only had three new handles and four new brushes :-)

 

The 911 analogy is close to my heart given I drive a 997.2 turbo

A bit like the LP12 don't you think?

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by analogmusic

or the Mercedes S class  ?

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by Christopher_M
Originally Posted by Donkeyhaute:

By the Beard Of Toutatis. That's a gratuitous amount of guessing I've been doing. Call me Madame Sosostris. I charge by the disappointment.

 

Don,

You are wasted here. But I am enjoying your writing very much.

 

Chris

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by Donkeyhaute

Hi Chris,

 

I like it here very much. I once got birched, in public, for ribbing a chap who was complaining about a slight logo delamination (they weren't delaminating equally).  But this was in another country, and besides, the logo is dead.

 

 

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by Christopher_M

Excellent!

 

C.

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by hungryhalibut
Originally Posted by Donkeyhaute:

Hi Chris,

 

I like it here very much. I once got birched, in public, for ribbing a chap who was complaining about a slight logo delamination (they weren't delaminating equally).  But this was in another country, and besides, the logo is dead.

 

 

I'm pleased it was ribbing rather than rubbing, which was how I first read your post. 

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by Donkeyhaute

HH. Yeah - definitely supposed to be a gentle ribbing. I've never rubbed myself on a logo, or a chap, or a chaffinch, or even a willing anchovy, despite - and this is important -  what you may have seen in the popular press. 

 

I looked upon that misadventure as a Naim initiation ceremony. Although unpleasant, I didn't have to introduce myself into a pig. and I'm still around 5 yrs later, buying mostly what Mr HH recommends. Maybe buying Naim simply means working out what crucial imminent upgrade it is that you just can't quite afford.   

 

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by Donkeyhaute
Hi Analogmusic, the short answer is a 'yes'! I posted on HH's thread about TQB IN DA HAUS outlining my system evolution.
 
I have relatively sensitive speakers. I think the Guru QM10 MkIIs are roughly 89db or similar (can't remember - but an easy-ish load). So the SU didn't lack grunt. But for the market value I was interested in what buying a recently serviced CB250 would do to the system. There were also  contingent benefits in that I could disable the internal power amp of the SU, meaning that its transformer could simply concentrate on powering the dac, streamer and internet radio, display, logic boards, and bits and bobs.
 
I remember not being convinced initially because it widened the sound stage so much, the whole system sounded odd. It also nudged the mid bass hump back into a more acceptable position. I preferred the Uniti's presentation in this respect to the SU's.
 
I think the SU needs an amp redesign for its next incarnation.
 
Anyway, read HH's TQB thread for the full review. In short, the NAP 250 (despite being CB mixed with black) is a very welcome addition, adding more than it blurs, and it is staying. I'll be interested in how it does with a 272, in due course. 
 
I also switched to TQB speaker cable (much more fluid, whilst retaining the august, Naim characteristics) and a WitchHat Din cable which was also a discernible improvement.
 
Sorry for waffling.
 
 
 
Originally Posted by analogmusic: 

is your CB250 improving the superuniti? something I have always been intrigued by. There was another thread where Frank Abela commented that the 250.2 added to a Uniti sounded very good.

 

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by Sneaky SNAIC
Originally Posted by The Strat (Fender):

Wow - look at the engineering in that.

You can see the green circuit board on the left becomes more and more dense, with smaller and smaller bits on it over time.

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by analogmusic

In my limited Naim experience, one can enjoy all levels of Naim without being on a constant upgrade path. It is financially and mentally exhausting to keep aspiring for the next unaffordable upgrade.

 

when properly set up with compatible speakers, even the UQ1 sounds fantastic to me, really good enough in a small room and moderate volume levels to be the all the musical entertainment one could need.

 

I bought a 282 which I run with HCDR and 200.

 

for fun I took out my 202 bare and connected it to my 200, and it sounded just fine to me, to the point where I had myself asking do I really need the 282. I enjoyed music on the bare 202/200 all day...

 

 

 

Posted on: 15 October 2015 by Donkeyhaute
Originally Posted by analogmusic:

In my limited Naim experience, one can enjoy all levels of Naim without being on a constant upgrade path. It is financially and mentally exhausting to keep aspiring for the next unaffordable upgrade.

 

when properly set up with compatible speakers, even the UQ1 sounds fantastic to me, really good enough in a small room and moderate volume levels to be the all the musical entertainment one could need.

 

I bought a 282 which I run with HCDR and 200.

 

for fun I took out my 202 bare and connected it to my 200, and it sounded just fine to me, to the point where I had myself asking do I really need the 282. I enjoyed music on the bare 202/200 all day...

 

 

 

Yes. I'd concur. My first Naim system was Uniti with Powerline, into Guru QM10s (originals). It sounded extraordinarily compelling. I wanted more of that. It's fairly low-end, in Naim terms. And it took me about 3 upgrades to get that sound back with my current, higher spec system. Not to mention cable faffing.  I think maybe the  sweet spot will be 272, some form of 250 and room compatible speakers.