'Source First' Brigade vs Team Mullet: FIGHT!

Why not look at the active version of the SCM40 with the XS as a pre to start with and then re-evaluate the source later on. Perhaps a 272 might do the trick ? 

Hi James.

thank you for your reply! I did think of that option... but

1. I can find a pair of SCM40 used for around £1.0-£1.5K. The actives (only available in gen2 are uber expensive)

2. I love the Naim sound (amplification included) The SCM40A sound so very different than a pair of passives with a Naim amp

Stil, all avenues worth considering.

Hi Alonso - Ah ok. When you demoed the ATC's, what was the setup ?. I'd be looking to replicate that otherwise you may be disappointed.

James

Hi James

The set up was exactly what I have now (swapping diminutive Neats for SCM40) The core virtues I wanted in loudspeakers were there, it's just that (apparently) the Nait XS is not enough to bring out the real magic in the SCM40, hence my need for more power...

Looks like you are resistant to changing electronics. Therefore I'd find a speaker that works with them. An on the face of it mullet that has been suggested by Naim before on the main site is CD5XS (or presumably ND5XS), XS and S400s. I'd want to know if this could be more 'lovely' than currently with Neat Motive2s, and make you forget all about the ATCs which no doubt will demand so much more, electronics wise.

Chris

Hi Alonso - I wouldn't worry. Just get the ATC's if they worked so well for you with your present setup. - your system, your ears. I certainly wouldn't be looking to the forum for validation on the 'right' approach.

What may not look like it will work well on paper doesn't always work out that way in reality. I'm sure the ATC's would thrive on a 'better' amp but would they have the same synergy as you found with your present amplification and source

James  

If it works in your room that is what matters. Down the line you could add a 250 of some sort, then later swap the ND 5 and Nait for a 272. That would be cheaper than an NDX, a 282 and the obligatory Hicap, and would be of more than adequate quality for those ATCs. 

If this demo was at home with your existing electronics then follow James' advice, buy the ATCs and ask the mods to close the thread.

C.

For the ATC SCM 40s you'd need at least an NDS!

(Sorry couldn't resist)

I would agree that it's worth trying a 250DR now, with a view to upgrading the source later as funds allow.  That's the obvious solution as the 250DR is just sufficient to not be compromised when driving SCM40s.

However, some people are less affected by the sound limitations that occur when a power amp doesn't have quite enough drive capability for a particular speaker, particularly if you tend to listen at low or moderate volume levels.  In which case a SN2 or even your existing XS may be sufficient for your expectations.

Unless an amp is really struggling (and usually only at high volume), over complex speakers won't sound worse, they'll just faithfully show the limitations of earlier components in the chain.

Similarly 'monkfish' systems (i.e. massively source first) don't sound worse than their least capable system components, they're just limited by it.  Mullets and monkfish are simply not sensible use of financial resources when buying an initial system.  As a step on an upgrade path they often both make complete sense in their own way.

If it sounds right to you, don't worry about it!

Huge... Thank you, your reply  helps a lot

While you're 'here' Please help me understand something you said.

What is interesting is that 95% of the times i ONLY listen to music at low or moderate levels. Maybe that is why I liked the sound of my Nait XS with the SCM40s ?

What I 'understood' was that when someone said that speaker X required Z amplifier (e.g. minimum Y watts), it applied to ALL levels (volume) of replay. I thought that regardless of the volume one listened music to, an 'underpowered' amp would show itself as non-optimal (regardless of volume) What you're saying is that if one only/mostly listens to music at low/moderate levels, the amplifier's power (eg. Nait XS) would not be an issue with demanding speakers such as the SCM40? Did I get that right?

I think you also have to keep in mind that good digital sources these days are far more capable, for far less outlay, than they were in the past. 

The gap between 'cost effective' digital by way of ND5s, DAC V1s, NAC 272s, Hugos, irDACs, MAC minis, Squeezeboxes, Sonos, Auralic minis etc., vs their far more expensive cousins is not as great as the difference of say a 1990 budget CD player vs high end CD player.  So less expensive digital front ends generally do not embarrass themselves when feeding more expensive amplification and speakers imho. 

The mullet is the new normal !!

Granted to get the last drop of resolution, ambiance, emotion  'insert appropriate hi-fi quality', you may want the best source you can afford - but carefully selected, economical digital sources work just fine and should not present an obvious bottleneck.

What's interesting is that the other day I did search on forum member's profiles (who was using SCM40 with what electronics) this is what I found (there were other members that had SCM40 but because of their non-naim amplification, I decided to exclude them to keep things simple) but this is basically it, I am sure there are many more users of Naim with SCM40 at the end, but these were the only ones who declared their system in their profile on our forum

NAP150, Nac72, Sqeezebox Touch & Raspberry Pi, Beresford Caiman Dac, Nac A5, ATC SCM40

Meridian G08.2, Naim 202/Hi Cap2/NAP 200 ATC SCM40

CD5XS, NAC202, NAP200, Sonos ZP90->NAC202, NACA5, ATC SCM40

PC -> TeddyPardo U2S -> Naim DC1 -> Naim DAC -> SuperNait 2 + HiCap DR -> b v2

Nac282 / NAP200 / NAP 250 / CDX2 / XPS2/Hicap x 2/Napsc/Linn LP12/TAG PPA20 Phono amp/ ATC SCM40

282/Napsc2/ NAP250/Hicap2/LP12/Micromega Stage 3/AudioNet DAC DLC II/ATC 40 and Avalon Monitors/Audioquest vintage cables

NAC N-272 + TP-XPS - NAP 250.2 - ATC SCM 40 (Gen 2)

Laptop, NDac, Hi-Face EVO ,NAC 252 and NAP 300 and ATC SCM40

An underpowered amp can make itself known at modest volumes as it won't be able to control the speakers as well, so giving a less impactful sound - like being slapped by a wet mullet rather than being hit with a stick. 

Why not grow a big beard to stroke AND a nice mullet at the back ! 

Alonso I remember you having once a very impressive front end under your nose.

I'm this guy from your list:

PC -> Chord Silver USB -> TeddyPardo U2S -> Naim DC1 BNC -> Naim DAC -> ARSound Lunar -> Naim SuperNait2 + HiCap DR -> ATC SCM40 v2

(I updated all the cabling to my profile)

I think my setup is well in balance now. My latest experiment was adding PSU for the Naim DAC. I auditioned non-Naim "XPS" and Naim XP5XS. I must say that I was very surprised by the end result because I liked the Naim DAC best without either of the PSU's. Now this, I think, has a lot to do with the amplification. While SN2 + HCDR manages to keep good grip on the SCM40 v2 as it is, SCM40 v2 would still benefit from stronger power amp like 250.2 DR. I just know it. When I added the PSU's for the Naim DAC, the clearest difference was (as it usually is) in the bass department. It got much stronger and more powerful, to that extent that it overpowered the sound IMO. I didn't like the effect. SCM40 is quite a big speaker for my ~20m2 room and gives plenty of bass already with bare Naim DAC. So in my setup, there's better balance without an upgrade PSU. Both of the PSU's had quite similar effects to the sound. The XP5XS added even more bass. 

Now some of you will say that SCM40 v2 is too big for my room. It might well be. But when I auditioned it against my previous speakers, PMC Twenty.23, it simply destroyed them. SCM40 is so much better every way that I couldn't resist buying a pair. Of course I could've auditioned more speakers but I just had this feeling and couldn't skip these. You know the feeling that you just have to have something.

My next test will be 272 + 250.2 DR. My dealer has this combo and he's running in the amp at the moment. I'll report when I've done the audition. It would be nice to hear comments from the guy who already has this exact setup like your listing suggests. 

Moderated Post:  Patu, please remember that non-Naim PSUs constitute an unauthorised modification to Naim equipment; performance will not be as Naim intended and damage may well result.  As such, discussion here is not permitted.  I have edited your post accordingly.

There is an effect of a lower powered amp at lower volumes (e.g. when the amp is running less than about 5% of rated power, so typically upto about 90dB with average speakers); but it's much less severe than all the transient limitations and other factors that occur at higher power levels.  As Chris and HH say it's about control, particularly at bass frequencies.  There is a specific measurement to determine this element of performance - the Damping Factor of the system (not just the amplifier).

At low volumes, it still doesn't make the system sound worse than the characteristic sound of the amp though, just that a lower powered amp can't fully exploit the characteristics of the speakers. (For completeness sake: This applies unless the amp is grossly underpowered!)

And yes, I have investigated this with precision (4.5 digit) voltmeters and an oscilloscope.

Hi Alonso

I think Hungryhalibut has offered some good advice here. The Nait XS, as you have experienced is OK with the SCM40 and the amp certainly won't be embaressed in this system, particularly as an interim solution. A SuperNait or even better the 250 DR will drive the speakers with more ease and certainly add the authority and control we have come to expect from a 250 over the years. You might not have the weight and drive you would ultimately want but the XS with the 40's will be more than enjoyable....... until the next time you get the itch and a bigger amp allows you to take the handbreak off!

Cheers

Jack

Hi Paul. I am leaning more and more towards what you suggest.

Stage 1: ND5 XS>Nait XS > ATC SCM40

Stage 2  ND5 XS>Nait XS (as Pre amp)> Pre-loved NAP 200 or NAP 250

Stage 3: 272>NAP250>SCM40

Thank you for your input!

Alonso

This. I found this fascinating. If you say that the Quite held it's head high with the SCM40s, then it sort of proves that the difference between power amps (hooked to demanding speakers) must be a matter of (very subjective) degrees ... (i.e. not much)

Hi Jack... thank you for taking the time to reply. 

Yes, the Nait XS certainly gave an enjoyable experience ... and I think it can hold on until funds for a pre loved non-DR 250 arrive

A pre loved Supernait 1 is certainly on the cards. It keeps box count to 2 and might be enough (for now) it's just that I am not sure if the difference between the Nait XS and the Supernait 1 is worth the hassle

I think you'll find he was using the Qute as a source for a 250 based system. I may have misinterpreted that of course.

I certainly would not bother going to a Supernait 1 from the XS. A 250 is what's needed.