End Game System

ProAC D40R was Q3's predecessor. I agree with catalinmetal's words, ProAC is a mismatch to Naim. 

The old 300 is a bottleneck for me right now but it possesses enough to drive Q3. Q3 is extremely revealing and is very able to tell what goes wrong in the setup. 

Thanks for the follow-up diamondback. I was wondering if the 300 would have the grunt, actually wondering if a 500 will really bring out the best of the Q3?.

They are wonderful speakers and I look forward to your observations after your 500 beds in- good luck!

ATB,

Mark

+1

this is absolutelly ilogical...

HOW can you choose electronics if you don't have the voicing sorted out??!!!

and the voicing is ... the speaker, in the highest percentage...!

i think this source first phylosophy may came out also from the fact that many have small rooms and cannot think of investing in real expensive speakers, which usually aren't so small...

NO, absolutely no! is like buying the tyres before the car... is ILLOGICAL. how will you know you got the right electronics???

the speaker, (i said it before i i wll repet it until at least some of you will understand, or untill Naim decides to ban my user) has the highest contribution to the sound. and it is logical since the most important as quantity and quality energy transfer and translation takes place at this level (electro-magnetical energy into mechanical).

and yes, i agree, speakers behave differently in different room, heck, they can even behave radically different in the same room in different places! but once fit, you can then ad the tunning of this, which consists primarily from an amp that can correctly control those speakers, and then the source, and then, as a step of fine tunning, the cables!

this is the ONLY correct set up of a system if it is not bought all at once (assuming that it fits in the listening room, physically and acoustically)

i woun't take other answers for this matter because my experience tell me this is the only logical.

period!

ok, i agree that everyone should build of their systems as they like, after all it's their money and their pleasure, but the correct way is just this, from speakers, to amps, to sources, and then cables, racks, dressings, decoupling. room treatment is a separate thing, as in some cases the room is so bad that ANY speaker has issues, so this step in those cases must be done first. if room has no hard strange issues, room treatment can be done in the final stages of fine tunning...

and positioning of the speakers can be fine tuned from day one to ... the final likeable position. i happen to realise very soon how a speaker should be positioned in my home, and then, i rarely change that.

Finally a man who knows what he is talking about!!!

bravo, sir!

again, someone who actually can tell matching from mismatching! thank you.

as a star wars saga fan would say: "there is still hope!"

I'm sorry Cat, but I cannot agree with you. This can lead to real dissatisfaction. In my experience (and that of anyone who has spent years trying to offer guidance to those wanting to improve their hifi systems), those who seem most dissatisfied with their systems are those who start out buying the speakers they desire and then wonder what they can get away with to drive them. Invariably, they always tend to spend too much on the speakers and not enough on source or amps. It's putting cart before horse.  Using your tyre analogy, it's like setting your heart on some super fandango P zeros and then wondering whether they'll be brilliant on a Toyota Corolla, because that's all your remaining budget will stretch to.

So please, don't purchase speakers first.

However... choosing a system as a whole is a good idea.

I purchased my speakers first and it didn't work out for me.

My story is that I picked up the hi-fi comics, liked the look of the B&W 805s speaker, innocently walked into the showroom somewhere near Maidenhead where I used to lived, and loved the combo.

This was driven by 202/200.

Many years later, much money later, I realized that the sound that I loved so much, did not actually come from the speakers. DAMN ! I had already bought the speakers.

What I was really after was Naim amps driving those speakers, and I got that same sound from many other speakers I tried driven even with Unitiqute.Huge PRAT, nice open airy soundstage.

This sound quite unique to Naim was audible from Revel, Martin Logan, Dynaudio, Naim Intros, Sonus Faber, Dali, and some Canadian speaker with Ceramic drivers whose name I cannot remember now. The sound also comes with Naim and B&W, but B&W need to be driven with lots of current, and then it's not tonally neutral to my ears.

So speakers are the last bit to buy as Richard Dane says, and I wish I knew that before I spent and lost money on B&W speakers. Somewhere on this forum, there is a person with these same speakers who felt they only really came to life with a Nap 300.

So speakers first approach may be lucky for you if you somehow get it right (but most probably will not), but I would say whatever Richard Dane has advised has worked out just fine for me, once I started listening to my him , my local dealer and Naim (head office) and implementing it.

I don't really see why there should be a discussion (heated!) in source-first or speaker-first. Just count how many electronics you have changed since day one of your Hi-fi adventure? How many pair of speakers you have bought and sold?

If you are enthusiastic and passionate enough about Hi-fi, the whole thing is about discovering performance bottlenecks along the chain of electronics, and tune the chain to produce the style that you like. Picking the right electronics is an art, not a programmed technique. Both De Vinci's Mona Lisa and Picasso's Nude, Green Leaves and Bust are great pieces of painting, yet they are at two extremes.

In an thread called end game system, I won't be popular for saying this, but, I think most of the Naim owners problems come from system mismatch.

That is why, IMHO, the Uniti series, with Naim speakers, is actually a very fine solution, because it is very difficult to get that combination wrong. The only way to mess that up is with bad cabling and termination.

The problem with Uniti is a weak source (Uniti 2) or a weak amp (Superuniti) ... For those who are used to the performance offered by Naim separates, going back to Uniti would be difficult.

Many years ago (1987, I think), I tried the speakers-first approach. It ultimately worked out for me, but not without considerable angst and extra cost.

I'd chosen a pair of Celestion SL6 speakers, after having auditioned them against various other manufacturers' offerings at the dealer's shop. I then went out a purchased a Rotel amp (can't remember the model, but it was 60 w/ch) and RC-870 preamp -- modest but very nice. My listening area was quite large, and while the sound was pleasant enough, it was nothing like that in my audition experience. I was not happy.

I took the Rotel amp back, and after further thought, research and auditioning, I forked over considerably more money for a Carver m500t (a 250 w/ch magnetic field amplifier with greater transparency and incredible presence). To say that the Celestions came alive and their character asserted itself fully when driven by the Carver would be a gross understatement. I was happy, but much further out of pocket than I'd wanted to be.

With my current kit, I was lucky enough to get advice that echoes what Richard Dane said about the advisability of choosing a system as a whole. The folks I dealt with in Vancouver had me audition a variety of speakers with each of several different integrated amplifiers and the same digital source. This was in late 2007, and the last of the amplifiers I tried was a Supernait. With each of the speakers I auditioned over several days, the SN demonstrated its attributes and superiority.

With the dealer's help and several more days of listening to systems built around the SN, I matched the amp with a Rega Apollo, a pair of Fidelity Acoustic RFM-2 floorstanders (chosen over offerings from Mirage, B & W, Totem and Paradigm) and a REL subwoofer. I still have this setup, the only addition being a tiny, very inexpensive Dune HD media server that outperforms servers many times its price.

I am, as they say, loving it, with no plans to upgrade anytime soon -- and I'm no longer keen on the speakers-first approach.

Neither speaker or source first is the answer in itself.

Synergy between source, amplification, speaker and listening environment is the key. 

How did you go about reaching that conclusion? Which power amp would bring about a definitive upgrade on the internal amp?

What we all need to remember is that Catalinmetal is always right, and the rest of us are wrong. 

Hi HH,

with your (former) Lordship's permission, may I be permitted to be the exception to this rule?

Catalinmetal and I have a long track record on this forum of politely and consistently disagreeing with each other on most of his assertions.  However, I'm used to them now, so keep a plentiful stock of salt on hand for such occasions.

Best regards, FT

     LOL...

Catalinmetal raises fair points. I remember him making lots of comments about the naim PSU, and then (Naim were already working on it) came out the DR upgrades for the Preamps.

Cat also made some comments about the Naim power amps, and (Naim were already working it) we got the DR upgrades for those.

So the man does have some fair points. 

I just spent an afternoon listening to 

Naim 500 series with stradivarius Sonus Faber speakers

Linn Klimax series with active 350A speakers

And it is a very, very close call between both, and as a long term Naim fan, I had to admit that Linn was equally fun, musical, sounded very, very fine to me. 

I would not underestimate the competition, which is what Catalinmetal is saying, and certainly has responded with a very strong DR upgrade to preamps and power amps.

I wish the speakers looked prettier but that system doesn't half pack a musical punch. We still marginally prefer Naim's more visceral, ballsy presentation (Helen more than me) but if we were starting over the Linn might swing it for it's sheer ease of use, low box count and ongoing development. Linn really do seem to be making all the right moves with software development, room matching and so on. Not to be underestimated - and I'm sure nobody does.

And they do still make the briliant Sondek LP12, of course. Thankfully.

And that should form the basis of any end game system. IMHO.

Yes and that too.

I believe the superuniti can be improved by adding a 200.

I've seen recommendations from those adding a 250. The improvement in part could be to 'dedicating' the SU power supply to source and preamp duty. A 200 would be a sideways move in my opinion, but I've yet to hear a 200 on the end of mine, which seems plenty capable on its own.