End Game System

Posted by: 337GUS on 19 October 2015

Appreciate some advice on getting to my end game system.   Next year we will get rid of our house and move into a bungalow after some building work, which incudes a soundproofed and treated audio room, dedicated mains, approx. 30ft by 25ft.

 

I’ve have/had some reasonably high end kit – Meridian / Musical Fidelity / Arcam but Naim is where I intend to remain, after I bought the ND5XS I was sold on the new black stuff.   I still have a Pink Triangle/32.5/110/Neat Petite system I use now and then.

 

Current kit is:

 

Grahams Hydra > ND5XS > DC1 > nDAC + TXPS > A R LUNAR > 282 + DTCAP > 300 > NACA5 > Kef Ref 205.

 

TT is a Gyrodec SE, Technoarm, 10x5, NCPSU, Dino2 + NCPSU and cable.

 

The 300 is 2 years old and I will get the DR upgrade done after a demo if I like it, hopefully it will get rid of the power supply hum.

 

This year is one of those significant birthdays – 50 – and after working my ass off for most of my life I have a few quid to spare, no kids and you can’t take it with you J.

 

Thinking is chop the ND5XS + nDAC in for the NDS and get a 552 non DR, I prefer to buy ex Dem or used via my dealer.   Then DR the 552 and 300 down the line.   Which would you do first or would you do it differently?

 

Speakers wise I am looking at Kef Ref 5 or the Blade 2, although I will listen to a variety including B&W, ProAc, Kudos, Neat and Naim.   Any suggestions of models / other makes?

 

Music is mostly 70’s to current Rock/Pop/Electronica via CD rips and Tidal, no Jazz or Classical to speak of.   Vinyl is a lesser used medium but I do intend to max out the Gyro later on with a new arm and cart and get a better phono stage.

 

Any comments would be welcome.

 

Thanks

 

Gus

 

Posted on: 23 October 2015 by ChrisSU
Originally Posted by hafler3o:

       
Originally Posted by Zeny:
Originally Posted by hafler3o:
Originally Posted by Zeny:

... or a weak amp (Superuniti) ...

How did you go about reaching that conclusion? Which power amp would bring about a definitive upgrade on the internal amp?

I believe the superuniti can be improved by adding a 200.

I've seen recommendations from those adding a 250. The improvement in part could be to 'dedicating' the SU power supply to source and preamp duty. A 200 would be a sideways move in my opinion, but I've yet to hear a 200 on the end of mine, which seems plenty capable on its own.


       
I'm running a 200DR with my Superuniti at the moment. It's only an interim step until I upgrade the SU, but it certainly improves significantly on the internal power amp.
Posted on: 23 October 2015 by hafler3o
Originally Posted by ChrisSU:
 
I'm running a 200DR with my Superuniti at the moment. It's only an interim step until I upgrade the SU, but it certainly improves significantly on the internal power amp.

That's good to know. Can you give an indication of what improvement you get? I'm just readjusting my ears after installing a dedicated spur for the listening room. Treble seems a little more cultured and the sound is less 'bold and brassy', better for sad music!

Posted on: 25 October 2015 by ChrisSU
Originally Posted by hafler3o:
Originally Posted by ChrisSU:
 
I'm running a 200DR with my Superuniti at the moment. It's only an interim step until I upgrade the SU, but it certainly improves significantly on the internal power amp.

That's good to know. Can you give an indication of what improvement you get? I'm just readjusting my ears after installing a dedicated spur for the listening room. Treble seems a little more cultured and the sound is less 'bold and brassy', better for sad music!

Unfortunately, I only had the 200 for about a week before leaving home for a couple of weeks, so it's early days yet and maybe the 200 will 'burn in' for a while. There is greater clarity and separation of different instruments, and the sound is somehow a bit 'lighter', perhaps in part due to the lower power rating. I've noticed my wife, who has a good ear for music but is totally disinterested in hifi, has been keen to listen more often, so I guess that's a good sign. Hopefully, I'll have a clearer view of the improvements the 200 has bought when I get back home and spend some more time with it.

Posted on: 26 October 2015 by Steve J
Originally Posted by analogmusic:
I would take the active linn speakers over the 802diamonds any day or night

But what if the 802s had the Linn Exact crossovers?

Posted on: 26 October 2015 by catalinmetal

ChrisSU, indeed the 200DR is an upgrade to superuniti power amp, as it is actually for the supernait 2's power amp. i've tested those upgrades when i was in the "making" of my own setup and i wanted to know the various combinations, with XS2, SN2, SU, 200DR and 250DR as amps.

 

UQ, unitilite and unity2 were not in the test, since i felt in previous other events and tests they do not match the SU - for example...

 

we actually tried the separates vs all in one vs source + amp approach, and (on the ovators s400) the best result was with pre+power, no matter the combo's chosen, starting with 172/155 or 172+XS2 as power amp.

 

yes, i know, i cannot actually explain why exactly those speakers actually preffered this particular approach, but this was the case on my own and my dealer's (and also friend) ears.

the thing is that, when various combinations were tested, in a few extended sessions at my dealer's place, i thought that the biggest jump in sound quality (on those Ovators) was by replacing the SN2's power amp with the 200DR.

 

of course, 272 over 172 was a notable step, 250DR over 200DR was again a step up, SN2 over XS2 again a step up and so on... but adding the 200DR to the scheme brought in this context of the s400, the greatest jump in SQ. so i decided that the 200DR should be the other one part of the setup, after deciding about a week or two earlier on the speakers...

 

of course a 272 was better than 172, but i already filled the budget with 172/200DR/s400, so there it went. after i took the setup home, in the innitial position there was little resemblance to what i heard in dealer's room... but we already agreed that, in the case that the setup doesn't sound ok in my home, we call this deal off, no strings attached.

 

luckily for me, i got up earlier in the following morning, and just moved the speakers to another wall, where i have the window to my terrace, because i know that this wall has some serious changes in a speaker's sound. and again i was lucky, since now with ovators in this position, i could relate to the sound i heard at the testing session at the dealer's showroom. in that same day after work, till later in the night, the fine tunning of the speakers and rack's position took place, and afterwards, when everithing was pleasing enough to my ears, i concluded that it sounded just like i heard it at the dealer, fact confirmed by him after a short visit to my premises.

 

my point is: yes, a power amp starting from 200 iS a step up from all intergrateds or all in ones, BUT, the matching with the whole setup and with the room, is the key!

 

PS: (to HungryHalibut)

to releave HH of such a burden, i do not pretend that my opinions are undeniable laws, and i presume that anyone is entitled to do as it pleases with his (hers) money and choices, i will however state and debate everything that i think matches or doesn't matches my views as a result of serious experience, so i will not reply to a thred or post in which i have no experience...

 

if everybody would have agreed all the time with the others - i think no progress would have ever been made, and we wouldn't be now on our favourite forum discussing our favourite hifi.

 

Posted on: 26 October 2015 by analogmusic
I tried very hard to live with my B&W 805 speakers but gave up in the end
 
After selling the 805S, I also took my DAC V1/Nap 200 to try at the B&W showroom, with 804D, and 803D speakers, and unfortunately in both cases they only reminded me why I sold my speakers in the first place and replaced them with Dynaudio (not saying these are the best choice, but only what is available to me in my budget locally from the shortlist provided by Naim themselves - which is PMC, Dynaudio, Neat, Kudos, Focal, and of course Ovators)
 
There is no issue with speed and prat, but the diamond B&W seemed even more bright than the one I just sold.
 
Now it could be the NAP 200 that sounds sharp and bright, but this combo (NAP 200 and B&W) does not work for me.
 
Maybe the Diamond 3rd generation solves this issue (B&W do admit they changed the kevlar for a more neutral sounding material) and I have heard B&W sound fantastic on good days in my room. But just not consistently enough. I don't know if it mains quality, but all part of the Naim journey.
 
I guess we all have different expectations and views for instance for Harry Naim starts at 252/300, whereas when I compared UQ with 552/500 into very average speakers, for me it is all Naim, and the UQ performed brilliantly and was not sounding broken at all next to the mighty 552/500
 
 
 
 
Originally Posted by Steve J:
Originally Posted by analogmusic:
I would take the active linn speakers over the 802diamonds any day or night

But what if the 802s had the Linn Exact crossovers?

 

Posted on: 26 October 2015 by Zeny

Indeed back in the day when I had a SN1 the 200 is recommended as an upgrade. This is what the SN1 manual says:

 

Posted on: 26 October 2015 by musicnuttyboy
Hi analogmusic,
 
I've had a NAP 200 in the past and would never describe it as bright so i would presume the B&W's were at fault. However you clearly liked them enough originally to purchase them so what changed in your system 
 
What source do you use with your Hugo and DAC-V1 and has that changed?
 
 
 
Originally Posted by analogmusic:
I tried very hard to live with my B&W 805 speakers but gave up in the end
 
After selling the 805S, I also took my DAC V1/Nap 200 to try at the B&W showroom, with 804D, and 803D speakers, and unfortunately in both cases they only reminded me why I sold my speakers in the first place and replaced them with Dynaudio (not saying these are the best choice, but only what is available to me in my budget locally from the shortlist provided by Naim themselves - which is PMC, Dynaudio, Neat, Kudos, Focal, and of course Ovators)
 
There is no issue with speed and prat, but the diamond B&W seemed even more bright than the one I just sold.
 
Now it could be the NAP 200 that sounds sharp and bright, but this combo (NAP 200 and B&W) does not work for me.
 
Maybe the Diamond 3rd generation solves this issue (B&W do admit they changed the kevlar for a more neutral sounding material) and I have heard B&W sound fantastic on good days in my room. But just not consistently enough. I don't know if it mains quality, but all part of the Naim journey.
 
I guess we all have different expectations and views for instance for Harry Naim starts at 252/300, whereas when I compared UQ with 552/500 into very average speakers, for me it is all Naim, and the UQ performed brilliantly and was not sounding broken at all next to the mighty 552/500
 
 
 
 
Originally Posted by Steve J:
Originally Posted by analogmusic:
I would take the active linn speakers over the 802diamonds any day or night

But what if the 802s had the Linn Exact crossovers?

 

 

Posted on: 26 October 2015 by varyat
Originally Posted by Steve J:
Originally Posted by analogmusic:
I would take the active linn speakers over the 802diamonds any day or night

But what if the 802s had the Linn Exact crossovers?

Ver sneaky Steve!

Will require another three levels of Fraim though....

Oh, and a bunch of new wire too..

Posted on: 26 October 2015 by Steve J
Originally Posted by analogmusic:
I tried very hard to live with my B&W 805 speakers but gave up in the end
 
After selling the 805S, I also took my DAC V1/Nap 200 to try at the B&W showroom, with 804D, and 803D speakers, and unfortunately in both cases they only reminded me why I sold my speakers in the first place and replaced them with Dynaudio (not saying these are the best choice, but only what is available to me in my budget locally from the shortlist provided by Naim themselves - which is PMC, Dynaudio, Neat, Kudos, Focal, and of course Ovators)
 
There is no issue with speed and prat, but the diamond B&W seemed even more bright than the one I just sold.
 
Now it could be the NAP 200 that sounds sharp and bright, but this combo (NAP 200 and B&W) does not work for me.
 
Maybe the Diamond 3rd generation solves this issue (B&W do admit they changed the kevlar for a more neutral sounding material) and I have heard B&W sound fantastic on good days in my room. But just not consistently enough. I don't know if it mains quality, but all part of the Naim journey.
 
I guess we all have different expectations and views for instance for Harry Naim starts at 252/300, whereas when I compared UQ with 552/500 into very average speakers, for me it is all Naim, and the UQ performed brilliantly and was not sounding broken at all next to the mighty 552/500
 
 
 
 
Originally Posted by Steve J:
Originally Posted by analogmusic:
I would take the active linn speakers over the 802diamonds any day or night

But what if the 802s had the Linn Exact crossovers?

 

Any 'brightness' from a B&W speaker in the diamond range would come from the tweeter rather than the mid-range drivers. You also wouldn't have heard them at their best with a 200 amp. But it's important that you like the sound of whatever speaker you choose. 

Posted on: 31 October 2015 by analogmusic
I think in hindsight there was nothing wrong with the B&W 805s speaker, because i loved it when I heard it in the showroom but my system behaved really brilliantly sometimes, and not good other days.
 
I think now this was not due to the speaker, but due to my lack of care in setting up my system.
 
I now have removed the power line from the power amp, terminated my NACA 5 on both ends, taken care of interconnects, and now the system is performing well. I don't have the speakers any more (the B&W) but I am quite sure they would sing also.
 
 
I went for Dynaudios as a really good deal came up.... 
 
 
 
Originally Posted by musicnuttyboy:
Hi analogmusic,
 
I've had a NAP 200 in the past and would never describe it as bright so i would presume the B&W's were at fault. However you clearly liked them enough originally to purchase them so what changed in your system 
 
What source do you use with your Hugo and DAC-V1 and has that changed?
 
 
 
Posted on: 31 October 2015 by The Dude
...Suggesting a Naim Uniti is a weak source is like stating that Phil Collins is brilliant...wrong!
Posted on: 02 November 2015 by musicnuttyboy
So removing the Power Line was an improvement?
 
I'm just looking at adding PL's to my system so I'm curious.
 
Originally Posted by analogmusic:
I think in hindsight there was nothing wrong with the B&W 805s speaker, because i loved it when I heard it in the showroom but my system behaved really brilliantly sometimes, and not good other days.
 
I think now this was not due to the speaker, but due to my lack of care in setting up my system.
 
I now have removed the power line from the power amp, terminated my NACA 5 on both ends, taken care of interconnects, and now the system is performing well. I don't have the speakers any more (the B&W) but I am quite sure they would sing also.
 
 
I went for Dynaudios as a really good deal came up.... 
 
 
 
Originally Posted by musicnuttyboy:
Hi analogmusic,
 
I've had a NAP 200 in the past and would never describe it as bright so i would presume the B&W's were at fault. However you clearly liked them enough originally to purchase them so what changed in your system 
 
What source do you use with your Hugo and DAC-V1 and has that changed?
 
 
 

 

Posted on: 02 November 2015 by Zeny

Sorry dude, but I've had a Naim Uniti 2 so am speaking from experience. Try any recent dac into the Uniti 2 amp and you'll see what I mean.

Posted on: 02 November 2015 by analogmusic

No my bad, and apologies. I discovered the real culprit. I had a bad interconnect !

 

The PL makes the system much better, but also magnifies if anything is wrong.

 

Once the interconnect was replaced, the music is back 

 

PL is fine, and makes the system much better.