LP12 on SuperUniti - Tidal / FLAC streaming sounds warmer than the TT?

Posted by: Tweed1234 on 28 October 2015

So recently I acquired a s/h LP12 (circa 1982, pre-Cirkus bearing) with the Ittok-Adikt combination to play through my SuperUniti / Focal 926s.  This is paired with the recommended Lejonklou phono stage.  The TT was set up and cart installed by a Linn dealer.  My purpose for this was to have a warmer, richer vintage source, as a contrasting experience to the hi-res FLACs and Tidal streaming which the SU does so well.

 

I had expected (and got) a more forward midrange but to my surprise - the TT delivered more treble than the digital sources, using the same recording. In some recordings, this translated to more sparkling detail (one the side of being a bit bright and harsh), a more airy presentation, wider soundstage. This is not entirely unpleasant - and in some cases an improvement - but not really what I was expecting.  However, almost in all recordings, the bass was slightly less evident - the digital sources almost always sounded slightly more robust and clearly defined.  Again, not expected - I had been told about the signature "fat" Linn bass which was what older Linns (without the Cirkus bearing) were supposed to sound like.

 

The only difference from a fully vintage LP12-type setup I have is the Hercules Mose PSU.  I understand this has an effect on "cleaning up" the Linn sound and making it more neutral but I can't imagine having such a significant effect.  The LP12 unfortunately had a blown Valhalla board so I don't have a direct comparison.

 

It would be great to hear experiences from anyone else who has both streaming digital sources and LP12s (perhaps even some with the same tonearm-cart combo as me, as it is a popular pairing) and have done a comparison.  I have read that the Adikt needs a bit of running in (I'm only a week in), but I can't imagine the sound changing that much. 

Posted on: 28 October 2015 by Brilliant

Those LP12s could sound  different depending on what support they are placed on - I liked my 1987 LP12 on the light and rigid welded steel TT support made by Target in the 80s.

Posted on: 28 October 2015 by ChrisSU
I have an LP12/Circus/Ittok/Adikt and a Superuniti, and I would say that the treble is more forward on the LP12 than on Tidal, with local streaming somewhere in between. I found replacing an old steel Sound Org. table with a wooden Isoblue rack, and some speaker repositioning, toned down harshness in the treble effectively.
As it happens, I'm about to sell the turntable to make room for an NDX - it's going to be very strange living in a house with no turntable for the first time in my life, but I'd rather put all my resources into one source.
Posted on: 28 October 2015 by Tweed1234
Originally Posted by ChrisSU:
I have an LP12/Circus/Ittok/Adikt and a Superuniti, and I would say that the treble is more forward on the LP12 than on Tidal, with local streaming somewhere in between. I found replacing an old steel Sound Org. table with a wooden Isoblue rack, and some speaker repositioning, toned down harshness in the treble effectively.
As it happens, I'm about to sell the turntable to make room for an NDX - it's going to be very strange living in a house with no turntable for the first time in my life, but I'd rather put all my resources into one source.

This is what I'm hearing as well, thanks for confirming the comparison.  Do you also find the bass a bit on the light side (as compared to your digital sources)? It's not the end of the world as the lean bass works for some types of music, but I hear that upgrading to Cirkus, other "modern" Linn upgrades etc would take away even more bass.  I've also left the baseboard off as recommended by some, and now wondering if that's causing the problem.

 

Out of interest - are you ditching the SU altogether and getting separates to go with your NDX?

Posted on: 28 October 2015 by ChrisSU
Originally Posted by Tweed1234:

       
Originally Posted by ChrisSU:
I have an LP12/Circus/Ittok/Adikt and a Superuniti, and I would say that the treble is more forward on the LP12 than on Tidal, with local streaming somewhere in between. I found replacing an old steel Sound Org. table with a wooden Isoblue rack, and some speaker repositioning, toned down harshness in the treble effectively.
As it happens, I'm about to sell the turntable to make room for an NDX - it's going to be very strange living in a house with no turntable for the first time in my life, but I'd rather put all my resources into one source.

This is what I'm hearing as well, thanks for confirming the comparison.  Do you also find the bass a bit on the light side (as compared to your digital sources)? It's not the end of the world as the lean bass works for some types of music, but I hear that upgrading to Cirkus, other "modern" Linn upgrades etc would take away even more bass.  I've also left the baseboard off as recommended by some, and now wondering if that's causing the problem.

 

Out of interest - are you ditching the SU altogether and getting separates to go with your NDX?


       
Yes, the SU is going too. I'm running it with a 200DR at the moment, then I'm going to add NDX/282. Regarding bass levels, yes, I'd say the TT has just a bit less grunt than digital.
Posted on: 28 October 2015 by Pev

I have an LP12 and SU and find the sound of LPs comparable to streaming, maybe a bit more "organic" for want of a better term but it's not night and day. My LP12 has cirkus and lingo2 mods and I use a VdH retipped Linn Troika cartridge. There's no shortage of bass on either source.

Posted on: 28 October 2015 by The Strat (Fender)
Sounds just like an LP12 to me although I would never have described it as aggressive in the treble.
Posted on: 28 October 2015 by kuma

Assuming your Ittok is healthy, most likely it's a set up issue.

 

Did your dealer dial in the deck before he left?

 

But in general, vinyl replay has more brilliant sound than most thing digital ( especially streaming ) so you will need to tweak the turntable accordingly. You can certainly *mute* the trebles if you like or make it more laid back to your liking.

 

If you are hearing a gross distortion out of trebles, there might be more of hardware issues, also. 

Posted on: 29 October 2015 by Clearaudio lover

To have a more laid back sound just lower the arm base a bit and listen (VTA). 

Posted on: 29 October 2015 by Mulberry

Your LP 12 and Ittok are secondhand, but what about the cartridge? On a new one, the suspension will be too stiff at the beginning. This would lead to just a sound like the one you describe. If the tracking weight is set according to spec, you can increase it a little (say 0,1 to 0,2 gram) for the first few weeks.

Posted on: 29 October 2015 by Tweed1234
This was a great idea. I increased the tracking force to the max of Adikt (2g) from the midpoint 1.75g and heard the difference instantly.  I will also say - with the same tracking force - that each successive play appears to be improving in terms of a calmer treble, fuller bass with no loss of detail or soundstage.  Thanks!

It gives local streaming sources a run for its money now.
Posted on: 30 October 2015 by Mulberry

Good to hear that, a friend of mine was in fact in the same situation a few years ago. Please remember to scale the weight back in a few weeks. Otherwise the cartrigde will start to sound dull and bass-heavy. The suspensions lifetime will suffer as well, like an overloaded car suspension.

Posted on: 30 October 2015 by phosphocreatine
 

This is what I'm hearing as well, thanks for confirming the comparison.  Do you also find the bass a bit on the light side (as compared to your digital sources)? It's not the end of the world as the lean bass works for some types of music, but I hear that upgrading to Cirkus, other "modern" Linn upgrades etc would take away even more bass.  I've also left the baseboard off as recommended by some, and now wondering if that's causing the problem.

I began my TT experience with a "standard" LP12 Majik about 6 months ago connected with a Superline to my NAC 252. Compared to my digital source (bare NDX) the LP12 has more coherent mids but suffers from less controlled and heavier basses and from lack of details (altough I feel that the different instruments are better placed in the room).

I discussed the matter with my Naim/Linn dealer and we agreed on the fact that to reach the same SQ of my NDX (not the same sound !) the Majik configuration of the LP12 is way to "poor" to compete with the rest of the setup. 

So he lent me a complete Akurate LP12 (with the Uphorik Pre) to do some comparison: a very different league ! The capacity for this configuration to extract informations from the vinyl grooves is really amazing and not comparable with the Majik. I'm very impressed of how detaild is the music and the control on basses have gained a lot. I tried a couple of vinyls which are very demanding for a TT: Don Cherry "Corazon" 2nd song on the B side and Gets/Gilberto the Girl of Ipanema. The Don Cherry song is really engaging for the very rapid passages from bass to very high sounding instruments and the trumpet feels so real that you think to have it with you in the room; the very warm voice in The Girl of Ipanema (which produced to heavy basses and some distorsions in the room even with little volume with the Majik LP12) is now full and warm but very controlled. 

The results IMHO of this week of tests are the following:

1) If you have a quality setup with a good digital source you will be pleased by the peculiar characteristic of the vinyl only if your TT is at least as good, otherways you will just have a sound which is so undetailed that will not please you;

2) If you have a good and well configured TT the musical enjoyment is really engaging and with some (but not all) vinyls the music really comes to life;

3) I gave my Majik back to the dealer and let it upgraded to Akurate specifications 

 

Cheers !

 

Posted on: 02 November 2015 by Tweed1234
I had asked the Linn dealer to test out the same record on this present
setup (Adikt, Ittok, pre-Cirkus, Lejonklou), with his Akurate LP12 (Ekos,
Kore, Klyde) setup. Oddly enough, I preferred the sound of mine to his -
on the same record (I think it was some jazz with female vocal).

To my ears, while it did retrieve more detail / soundstage, individual
instruments sounded a bit thin and the voice on the harsh side in places.
Accurate perhaps, but not very enjoyable, and not by any stretch warm. I
had to politely smile and agree with the dealer what an improvement it
sounded like (but my ears couldnt agree). But it certainly put me off any
notion of upgrades to the "newer" Linn sound.

Can't judge just from one comparison and it could all be confirmation bias,
but it made me feel happier that I had chosen to go with a vintage setup.