Naim is sub standard - allegedly.
Posted by: Paulq on 04 November 2015
For some time I've been trying to get my non-technical brain to understand the whole speaker resistance/amp power needed and there's been a number of threads on other forums about it that I have been reading.
However the latest of these (with contributions from 'technical' people) not only assert that low power amps may indeed damage speakers but also that Naim gear is not worthy of the rep it has due to inferior power and componentry etc. It's actually quite a good debate and worth a read - it gets interesting from a Naim perspective. My involvement started, as per my earlier post on here this week, with my considering a Unitiqute 2.
I wonder what some of our own techie people on here would think. 
So is Naim stuff powerful or is it Marketing speak?
1. Yes
2. What do you mean by both? The 250 will be fine, the Qute won't
3. The only way to tell is by a home dem. Why would you deliberately choose a difficult speaker?
2 - 'Both' = 'Will the UQ2 drive them ok if I use that system' and 'will the 272/250 drive them if I use that system'?
3 - Because I like the way they sound but before I buy them I want to make sure I'm not going to fry anything?
Also bear in mind the difference between drive and drive well. There isn't much a UQ2 won't drive. But drive convincingly with synergy is another matter. You really need to work with your dealer on this.
Case in point. I have a UQ2 and a 282/250.2. The 250.2 based combo drives PMC Twenty.23s, the UQ2 something else. The UQ2 can drive the 23s with no problem and to realistic levels. But it doesn't have the steam to keep it up convincingly and no power rating and sensitivity numbers will tell you that. The numbers tell you it works (which it does). Not how well it works. As a result, the UQ2 sounds better into a cheap pair of very easy to drive speakers than the 23s which on paper are as compatible.
Trust your ears.
Also bear in mind the difference between drive and drive well. There isn't much a UQ2 won't drive. But drive convincingly with synergy is another matter. You really need to work with your dealer on this.
Case in point. I have a UQ2 and a 282/250.2. The 250.2 based combo drives PMC Twenty.23s, the UQ2 something else. The UQ2 can drive the 23s with no problem and to realistic levels. But it doesn't have the steam to keep it up convincingly and no power rating and sensitivity numbers will tell you that. The numbers tell you it works (which it does). Not how well it works. As a result, the UQ2 sounds better into a cheap pair of very easy to drive speakers than the 23s which on paper are as compatible.
Trust your ears.
You know what, I believe you completely. It's my ears I don't trust - I have never actually been able to discern when the amp 'struggles' as I simply don't listen that loud at all.
So when you say it doesn't have the 'steam' - at moderate levels what are the symptoms of it running out?
Naim isn't for everyone. But it works as described and I think the issues of tonal clarity being sacrificed in favour of musicality are largely a thing of the past ranges. The current stuff is very accurate and notions that Naim doesn't do soundstage are also outdated nonsense.
To clarify, it is not the same as just being under powered. When that happens you get obvious distortion and clicks and squawks at certain volume levels. When it is capable but just running out of steam, as I say, it just fails to convince regardless of level. I can't express it better than sound forced and restrained at the same time. If you do a test and a much cheaper speaker is sounding better with the amp you will know.
If you demo a number of options you will start to trust your ears. I promise. It is all about building a frame of reference.
Assuming it is remotely convenient, a factory tour is enlightening. The attention to detail is hard to believe until you see it, as is the volume of components that get sold on because they do not measure within the required spec., but will be perfectly OK for other goods. And so it is with Watts. Naim make their own but they only keep the good ones. Watts that are not good enough end up in fridges, microwaves, etc. This makes all the difference.
I have heard both MF M3i and M6i (85watts vs 250watts per channel) side by side and heard nor experienced absolutely no difference at all in drive/inpact whatever driving a pair of Monitor Audio GX200s and Sonus Faber Venere 2.5's.
As long as the speaker/amp combo can play to personal acceptable sound pressure levels in the room, differences wil be none/minute.
This is exactly the reason why dealers tell me not to change the amp (i have the original Supernait in mind) but the speakers because i'd like to gain some more low end impact.
Harry, very droll 
HH, feeling_zen, SmauG,
The problem is that you're all right at the same time, and each has identified part of the issue as seen (heard?) from the perspective of the reproduced sound.
The OP was talking about the speaker resistance. That's unfortunate as that is also just one element of the problem.
To define whether an amp is capable of driving a particular set of speakers at all is relatively easy, as is defining the maximum continuous sine wave volume they'll produce (but music isn't just a simple sine wave); and these two factors can be determined from the amp's RMS output power, the speaker's minimum impedance (N.B. not resistance) and the speaker's sensitivity. These are the specs published as they can be used to determine if the amp / speaker combination will work (i.e. not blow up or overheat). They won't give any clue as to how well the combination will work.
The question of how well a combination will work - or to put it another way what amp you need to make a pair of speakers give of their best - is a much more complex question. Even using many specs that the manufacturers determine themselves (but don't publish) and a shed load of complex matrix maths, will still only tell you that some combinations probably won't work well. It'll never tell you which ones will work well. The only way to be certain of that is to listen.
Driving a system too loud and blowing drive units because of clipping isn't in any way the fault of the equipment or a lack of compatibility; it's simply abuse of the system and clearly an error in the wetware of the user.
Its all very simple really.
The amp has to deliver voltage. From that voltage, current will flow (not necessarily at the same time, but lets steer clear of phase for the moment) to keep things simple
So the amp must not clip on the voltage. IE it must be able to generate enough voltage before it runs out of headroom. And then it has to be able to deliver enough current too, again without running out of puff.
think of it as the water pressure and water flow rate on a water pipe (super simple, I know, but good for the purpose)
Naim amps might not swing as big a voltage as other amps (not as much water pressure) but they will give lots and lots of current (flow rate).
Other amps might swing more volts but choke on delivering the current into a real speaker load.
Proof of this -- my lovely little Nait 1 can delivery real ooopmh into real speakers. How? Enough voltage, but loads of current. How? Feel the weight of the big transformer and the power supply capacitors. Thats the available flow right there.
As for internet memes, excuse me while I yawn. Ask them what test equipment they use. Just for a laugh...
Jon,
Unfortunately that analysis is incomplete as it ignores transient conditions.
not really, transient current delivery is what naim has always excelled at
...
Proof of this -- my lovely little Nait 1 can delivery real ooopmh into real speakers. How? Enough voltage, but loads of current. How? Feel the weight of the big transformer and the power supply capacitors. Thats the available flow right there.
...
Just taking one example from this (I'm not currently going to go into the flaws in the water flow analogy here), large transformers and large capacitors are slow to respond. On their own they give poor transient response. There's much more going on in Naim amps.
The situation is much more complex than you make out.
The only way to be certain of that is to listen.
The golden rule. Sometimes easier said than done. But if it is very difficult or impossible to listen to something I take the hint and accept that the universe doesn't want it to happen. It's not like there won't be other and better accessible possibilities.
I've heard people crank an amp up to painful clipping although I've never seen a clipping amp damage a speaker (as far as can be heard). People who behave like that pretty much end up with what they deserve sooner or later.
It does happen and even Naim cannot be held responsible for that combo.
It sure can happen. It's not Naim specific and all we can each do is chip in with our personal experiences. Do you know if the Nait clipped the tweeters or over drove them?
A forum friend told me that Julian Vereker used to regularly smoke the tweeters in his DBLs. Allegedly...
Nait3 was the wrong amp at the wrong for that person all things considered. But he believed Naim watts were better than Arcam watts and aspired to Naim so ended up there. Silly thing is, the comparative priced Delta 290 at 75w, would have done the job better in that combo. Not as clear overall but Naim have been upfront about the fact they believe making a good quality amp gets harder the more power it provides.
It's an extreme example though. A current NaitXS is supremely capable beyond other similarly power rated integrateds. But if you want to drive large difficult speakers in a large room at concert levels it probably isn't the right choice at that price level.
Again, a dealer can guide you according to your intended usage and room size to suitable options.
Reminds me when I played the Yes album 'Relayer' . It has some high note guitar work with long sustain this album smoked my Wharfdale Denton tweaters if not once, twice. I think I was using an A&R 60 amp Back then. I've still got the vynl album but i was never brave enough to get it on CD and I no longer have a turntable. My Neat Ultimatum XLS have two supper tweeters in each cabinet driven by a NAP300. However, I'm tempted to give it ago after reading the earlier posts in this thread.
Acred
It does happen and even Naim cannot be held responsible for that combo.
*chuckle* ... I'd be tempted to suggest that it was a mercy killing! (Yes, I did once have a pair!!!!)
Phil
...
Proof of this -- my lovely little Nait 1 can delivery real ooopmh into real speakers. How? Enough voltage, but loads of current. How? Feel the weight of the big transformer and the power supply capacitors. Thats the available flow right there.
...
Just taking one example from this (I'm not currently going to go into the flaws in the water flow analogy here), large transformers and large capacitors are slow to respond. On their own they give poor transient response. There's much more going on in Naim amps.
The situation is much more complex than you make out.
I would have thought that my analogy made that perfectly obvious. Clearly not for some pedants.
I have Relayer in 24/96 and have pumped it at very high levels through XL6 using a 300. Wonderful and not a smoke pall or smell to be had.
The Steve Wilson remix is better still.
Yes my Naim amps have been less powerful, and possibly even less dynamic,
I'm just curious to know, what amps/ brands would be more dynamic than Naim amps?
Thanks Harry. I'll search for a decent copy. Even more important as I saw Yes at the unfortunately cut short Stoke City Football ground concert on 17 May 1975. This was one of their Relayer gigs.