Trough Line News.

Posted by: George F on 07 November 2015

Some may have observed that since August I have been messing around with first one and then additionally a second Leak Trough Line “3” mono valve tuner from the early 1960s.

 

At first with one that was definitely working, and then with one that was reportedly not working. I found it intermittent, which is the most frustrating thing as the fault as such may not show up at the point of testing or servicing!

 

The first one is lovely, and subject to a slight problem with one of the front panel switches that selects for distant or local transmissions. Effectively it is a built in selectable antenna attenuator to prevent overload and clipping from the powerful signals of a close transmitter. This one now works with a tooth-pick jammed into the switch to maintain the contact! Okay that is a bodge!

 

It went off the boil - as I thought - because of this switch, and seemingly no amount of waggling the switch would restore decent function ... So I got out the other one that was reportedly non-functional. Well the intermittent nature of the fault in this one meant that I got it going long enough to realise that it was potentially the better one! 

 

As it is now known, the fault was in that most ruinous part, the mains transformer. It is having a transplant, and should be up and running again within the next week.

 

Far too nice to let it become recycled electronic scrap! 

 

In the meantime I have the first one back in service and running well. Of the two it is noisier and plummier in tone though it never gets that chesty voice on male radio announcers that is the sign that the tone is too fruity! I has been modified at some point though the one currently in dock is completely untouched from original up until its current repairs ...

 

Probably not of all that much interest to many here, but the way these things work has been a revelation to me. The last time I had regular access to a mono [valve type] FM/VHF tuner was at school up until 1975. That one was an even older type that only worked on three pre-tuned internal adjusted stations. I imagine that it was tuned in situ by the installing engineer. It had three letters on the control: L, T and H, for Light Programme [Radio Two nowadays], Third Programme [Radio Three] and Home Service [Radio Four]. Of course I remember the effect of this on live Radio Three concert relays, but the Trough Lines have revived the memory and brought the thought that sometimes old legends are not exaggerated!

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 13 November 2015 by George F

Dear Maurizio,

 

I could never - never ever - have hoped for an unused transformer! No amount of money would guarantee that, given that they are about as rare as hen’s teeth! 

 

I cannot take good photos under artificial light, but tomorrow may bring some sunshine! 

 

I have arranged a week’s holiday!

 

To stay at home ...

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 14 November 2015 by George F

These rather poor photos were taken in poor light, but today is so dark and grey that I could not improve on them.

 

I am sure anyone here will recognise the mains transformer that was changed.

 

 

 

Best wishes from George

 

Posted on: 14 November 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

George, thanks for the top shelf photos ... Nice 

Posted on: 15 November 2015 by Tabby cat

Great pics George.

 

How is she sounding now?

 

Did you listen to in the opera on radio 3 last night ?

 

I didn't tune in as I find it quite hard work.I also loath the Jazz programme on radio 3 particularly when they play that Skat.It is guaranteed to put me in a bad mood just hearing it !

 

Look foward to more updates.

Posted on: 15 November 2015 by George F

Dear Ian,

 

I started on the Opera last night, and Fidelio is one of the handful of operas I actually really like!

 

But it was a bit strange, and some odd modern touches such as sound effects replacing spoken dialogue caused me to give up! 

 

Today I have really hit the low end of a heavy cold, so hearing not at its best!

 

I got up about seven and was back in bed by eleven this morning. Surfaced the second time at nine in the evening, and now just off to bed again. Fortunately I have tomorrow off, so it hardly matters how I feel in the morning!

 

Anyway, though my nose it blocked and my ears thick I can tell that the Trough Line is splendid.

 

It is so fine that I may yet have to get a roof aerial! 

 

What is perhaps surprising is just how “modern” it sounds. Nothing smoothed over or muddled about this! All the received wisdom about valves would give a person no idea what to expect! 

 

But what it does not do is harden up under pressure of a difficult, or loud, signal. Nor does it emphasise the bass, which is present and correct but simply natural sounding. 

 

ATB from George

 

 

Posted on: 15 November 2015 by George F

I have just listened to a recorded concert from Wroclaw of Handel’s Concerto Grosso, Opus Six, No.5. And two settings of the Magnificat by Vivaldi and Bach. Plus two encores.

 

The Trough Line brought this out as if by magic!

 

At one point the church bells sounded softly in the distance during one of the silences, and I had to check the front door to make sure that this was in the broadcast! 

 

Yes, the Trough Line is on the top-line now! 

 

ATB from George

 

PS: Good job tomorrow is leave. A late music session would not be a good idea on a Sunday evening normally!!!

 

 

Posted on: 16 November 2015 by Tabby cat

Hi George,

 

Great news about your Troughlines.Liked your comment about hearing the bells on the broadcast.It sounds the voicing of it is spot on.My NAT O1 and to some degree my A@R Cambridge T 21 has the natural ability you speak off.Very organic and unprocessed sort of sound.But spot on with instrument timbre and voices.Another tuner that I use for a.m only is a NAD 4020 A.

Really good for Saturday football matches.It looks fantastic with a valve like glow behind the tuning scale.I might add that it doesn't have any valves in it ! But a nice piece of kit.

 

Hope your cold improves.At !east you have today off.Sadly off to work later this morning...oh to lie in bed !

 

ATB Ian

 

Posted on: 16 November 2015 by George F

Dear Ian,

 

Almost four months of fiddling, experimenting and even having repairs done, and the result is very very gratifying! Easily the best radio I have ever had at home! Could it be better?

 

I expect it could, but it is not bugging me! One thing that might trouble some is that it is not very loud! 

 

The Trough Line has a smaller output signal than modern sources like CD players, and flat out on the [tuner’s] volume control is not actually loud as such. I am running a little before half way round, so the net volume of sound is similar to what sitting in a good seat half way back at a concert! 

 

Suitable for playing AC/DC it is not!

 

Best wishes from George

 

 

Posted on: 20 November 2015 by George F

I have decided to experiment with a commercial FM VHF aerial!

 

A seven element Antiference one that is not particularly cheap. This will significantly increase the input signal available to the Trough Line and may bring better rejection of signal noise.

 

Not that this is unacceptable most of the time, but occasionally it does have its moments! I am sure it could be better on the whole.

 

I hope to have this experiment under way by this time next week. For sure this aerial with be no Ron Smith Galaxy, but if it makes the tuner even nicer then all to the good.

 

Of course this will mean using the unbalanced input on the tuner, but at least it has both balanced and unbalanced inputs.

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 20 November 2015 by dayjay
Originally Posted by George Fredrik Fiske:

I have decided to experiment with a commercial FM VHF aerial!

 

A seven element Antiference one that is not particularly cheap. This will significantly increase the input signal available to the Trough Line and may bring better rejection of signal noise.

 

Not that this is unacceptable most of the time. But I am sure it could be better.

 

I hope to have this experiment under way by this time next week. For sure this aerial with be no Ron Smith Galaxy, but if it makes the tuner even nicer then all to the good.

 

Of course this will mean using the unbalanced input on the tuner, but at least it has both balanced and unbalanced inputs.

 

ATB from George

Are you going to put it on a rotator George?  I listen to regional stations too so a directional aerial is no good unless I can aim it

Posted on: 20 November 2015 by George F

It  is only really ever going to be used on Radio Three and Radio Four, so mainline BBC transmissions from high power distant sender antennas. For me this is either Ridge Hill [Much Marcle] in Herefordshire, or Sutton Coldfield. Sutton poses a real problem as there is a big hill right in the way, but Ridge Hill - though only a relatively small sender - is what I am using with my loop.  Sutton Coldfield is the recommended sender for my post code, which is a bit odd!

 

The real logistical problem is that I have next to no chance of make a roof installation! Or even a loft placement either, so it will be trial and error with what I can do. But it is likely that I shall have a rather short length of co-ax cable, which brings the advantage of less signal attenuation ...

 

ATB from George

 

Posted on: 20 November 2015 by dayjay

Be interesting to hear how you get on George

Posted on: 20 November 2015 by George F

It is an experiment! I know that previously I had a very simple three element roof aerial, and the noise was really no issue. It is a question of experimenting, and I shall be fascinated to see what can be achieved. It may even be necessary to talk nicely to my neighbour about allowing me a to fix a supporting tube of his roof level balcony. This already has a number of different aerials on it, so if I ask nicely it may be the ultimate solution if I cannot fix up something less involved. That might even bring Sutton Coldfield into the range of possibilities.

 

Strangely the local stations are very loud and very clear. Close to clipping actually!

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 20 November 2015 by Mike-B
Originally Posted by George Fredrik Fiske:

It  is only really ever going to be used on Radio Three and Radio Four, so mainline BBC transmissions from high power distant sender antennas. For me this is either Ridge Hill [Much Marcle] in Herefordshire, or Sutton Coldfield. Sutton poses a real problem as there is a big hill right in the way, but Ridge Hill - though only a relatively small sender - is what I am using with my loop.  Sutton Coldfield is the recommended sender for my post code, which is a bit odd! 

Hi George,  I have a tool that maps terrain to your available transmitters,  if you are willing to tell me your home town or ?? miles north of etc,   I wll run it see what it pops up as the better transmitter..

Providing the hill is at a distance its should not be so much a problem for VHF FM as it is for the higher frequencies of UHF TV. Sutton Coldfield is the eq most powerful transmitter in UK with 250kW on R3 & R4 whereas Ridge Hill is only 10kW  

Posted on: 20 November 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Originally Posted by George Fredrik Fiske:

I have decided to experiment with a commercial FM VHF aerial!

 

A seven element Antiference one that is not particularly cheap. This will significantly increase the input signal available to the Trough Line and may bring better rejection of signal noise.

 

Not that this is unacceptable most of the time, but occasionally it does have its moments! I am sure it could be better on the whole.

 

I hope to have this experiment under way by this time next week. For sure this aerial with be no Ron Smith Galaxy, but if it makes the tuner even nicer then all to the good.

 

Of course this will mean using the unbalanced input on the tuner, but at least it has both balanced and unbalanced inputs.

 

ATB from George

Hi George, that should work well (it's what I use) so that is 5 directors, a dipole and a reflector. Again ideally a balanced lead would be great but for most not very practical, so do ensure your aerial fitter wires in a balun at the aerial end between it and the coax.. BTW like many things there can be a lot of creative energy into dsigning and describing some antenna designs.. The basic Yagi is very effective, albeit the higher gain Yagi needs design effort to increase the gain across a wider frequency range. However if you are mainly about Radio 3, a standard high gain Yagi would be hard to beat...

Simon

Posted on: 20 November 2015 by George F

Dear Simon,

 

It is more than likely that my first experiment will be to point the aerial out of a big window in the correct direction. As it goes, I have no suitable window pointing at Sutton Coldfield, so unless I get the thing onto the roof, Sutton Coldfield is out.

 

If I am inside with the aerial, then I’ll see if I can stay using the balanced inputs on the Trough Line as I already know how like for like the Transmission Line onto an aerial is better. On a roof situation, I wonder just how problematic that much unshielded connector might prove!

 

In any case the experiments will work stepwise until I have optimised as far as practical ...

 

Dear Mike,

 

Were we talking face to face, then I would have no problem, but I think these days a degree of caution about precise location is necessary [in a public forum] not for people like you, so much as others whom neither of us know, but who may be scanning the internet with less than benign intent. Not that I own anything worth breaking in for though!!

 

Thanks for your offer in any case.

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 20 November 2015 by Mike-B

OK George, no probs.  but I was not talking precise.

If you are on Ridge Hill & it works well with your window mount loop,  a properly mounted outside/roof yagi will be just fine.  

 

I would add to Simon's post on using coax to specify a satellite grade -  WF100 or CT100  -  I always go for WT100 as its foam insulation is more tolerant of bending compared to the air spaced CT100. Satellite grade has so much better signal loss properties than standard coax & the cost diff is peanuts.    

 

Also the largest Antiference antenna is a 5 element  FM1085

--  3x directors

-- 1x the Antiference "signature" design twin rod dipole

-- 1x reflector 

 

Posted on: 20 November 2015 by Christopher_M
Originally Posted by George Fredrik Fiske:

It is more than likely that my first experiment will be to point the aerial out of a big window in the correct direction.

For some reason I'm imagining a short film here, with the role of 'Troughline George' played by Steve Coogan.

 

Best as always George, and hope your radio gives you many more years of pleasure.

Chris

Posted on: 20 November 2015 by George F

Dear Mike,

 

Sorry to get the element thing wrong. The one I’ll go for is the one you show, and there is a smaller one.

 

If it works in the window, I shall avoid using up neighbourly good with going onto my neighbours high rail! Through his apartment!

 

As it goes, I am lucky that even from a low position I can get a good aim at Ridge Hill through the window. Most people would not accept a VHF aerial in their listening room, but it would not worry me! 

 

According to the BBC, there is nowhere in Worcester where Ridge Hill is to be preferred to Sutton Coldfield, and no doubt that is correct  for very high mounted aerials. I know that in our delivery vehicles that have RDS automatic tuning, the selection is mor often than not for Ridge Hill rather than Sutton Coalfield. I know which is which by the actual frequency displayed as tuned. 

 

In practice Ridge Hill does perform well.

 

Anyway, thanks for your interest.

 

Dear Chris,

 

What I am trying to do is get something nice going as I can within restraints. I am only doing it for the fun of it, really. Nice to get something vintage going well. If I lived where I used to till 2002 [on top of a small hill west of Worcester], I could have the choice of Ridge Hill as sight of line or Sutton Coldfield with no barriers in the way. I was also sight of line for the Malvern digital TV mast and also the Droitwich LW array! That was a great place for radio, and the VHF was so strong that a simple wire dipole got superb reception! You could tune to Ridge Hill or Sutton Coldlfield with complete lock!

 

I could somehow imagine that a TV comedy skit might be made about this! I want Leo McKern in the part of the loop aerial! Alec Guiness as the multi-element ... And Ian Richardson as the connecting wire! With special guest appearance from Albert Finney as the Trough Line!

 

Michael Gambon as the ESL. Oh goodness, I better stop now! 

 

 

Best wishes from George

Posted on: 22 November 2015 by Tabby cat

Great news about the roof Ariel George.I think you will always be wondering how much better the signal could be if you didn't go for it on the roof !..........Signal first in the radio department.

Does the Troughline get warm to the touch ?

Interesting comments from Mike with regard to the types of coax cable available.Very educational.

Wishing you a good Sunday afternoon.Hope your over your cold.

 

ATB Ian

Posted on: 22 November 2015 by George F

Dear Ian,

 

The Trough Line does get warm, but not hot.

 

Now I have a Smart meter with gives instantaneous and cumulative readings, I was able to check consumption, which is quite small. About 33 Watts, which is more than the NAP 110 at about 12 Watts, but not ruinous, as obviously it is turned off when not in use. It warms up to full quality in about ten minutes, and is audible after about 25 seconds at reasonable level of quality.

 

Anyway, I am looking forward to getting the aerial! 

 

ATB from George

 

PS: My cold is over. It was a nasty one though.

Posted on: 22 November 2015 by Mike-B
Originally Posted by Tabby cat:

Interesting comments from Mike with regard to the types of coax cable available.

..........  some more with pictures   

 

 

The graph shows cable loss in dB per 10m  for the three main cable types.

Low loss - this is the cheapo thin braid only screen stuff you buy at DIY stores

Alloy foil & braid screen - alloy has a questionable life when outside 

Copper Foil & braid - the best for sure.  I prefer Webro WF100 as its "solid" foam insulation is less prone to crush damage than the traditional air spaced coax

 

Note how at the FM frequencies the losses are far lower than at TV and satellite frequencies,  so while FM is less affected by attenuation losses than is TV (UHF) & satellite, the proportional dB loss differences are still significantly better.

Posted on: 22 November 2015 by George F

Dear Mike, 

 

If I read your chart correctly this means that even 20 metres of the best cable would not be ruinous. And far from defeating the advantage of height!

 

If I go up onto the roof via my neighbours steel balcony rail, which is really strong, made from RSJ and heavy box section, then my length of wire would still be less than seventy feet. A lot less. 

 

So after initial experiments inside, I may grasp the nettle and go for a full external fixture. As good as an ally post might be, I can get hold of a galvanised steel scaffold pole more easily! That would never snap off even in gales! I notice that almost every TV or Radio aerial is pointing at Ridge Hill in this immediate area, and further away they are pointing at Sutton Coldfield. It will not take much aiming!

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 22 November 2015 by Tabby cat
Originally Posted by Mike-B:  Thanks Mike interesting reading.Luckily I live 4 miles from my transmitter and the  ariel I have is the same as what you recommend for George.Signal strength is not an issue although classic f.m can be slightly weaker than the BBC stations.
A question for you and Simon could coax be improved further a sort of Superlumina version ?
I appreciate the loss isn't to bad compared to VHF but its got me thinking.
I think George could be getting the maximum out out of his Troughlines now.
Thanks for posting the graph.
 
ATB Ian
Originally Posted by Tabby cat:

Interesting comments from Mike with regard to the types of coax cable available.

..........  some more with pictures   

 

 

The graph shows cable loss in dB per 10m  for the three main cable types.

Low loss - this is the cheapo thin braid only screen stuff you buy at DIY stores

Alloy foil & braid screen - alloy has a questionable life when outside 

Copper Foil & braid - the best for sure.  I prefer Webro WF100 as its "solid" foam insulation is less prone to crush damage than the traditional air spaced coax

 

Note how at the FM frequencies the losses are far lower than at TV and satellite frequencies,  so while FM is less affected by attenuation losses than is TV (UHF) & satellite, the proportional dB loss differences are still significantly better.

 

Posted on: 23 November 2015 by Mike-B
Originally Posted by Tabby cat:
........    I live 4 miles from my transmitter and the  ariel I have is the same as what you recommend for George.Signal strength is not an issue although classic f.m can be slightly weaker than the BBC stations.
A question for you and Simon could coax be improved further a sort of Superlumina version ?
I appreciate the loss isn't to bad compared to VHF but its got me thinking.

 

  If your existing coax & its connections are in good condition, & your transmitter only 4 miles away,  I doubt you will get any change - the proverbial length of wet string will do the job. 

The gains with a better coax come into effect with long coax lengths and/or low(er) signal strength and/or interference from various sources.  Whilst its always best to use a satellite grade coax, together with good quality connections - ideally 'F' screw types rather than the usual plug in - with a strong signal from a decent aerial & the tuner at full quietening the difference will not be audible. This is nothing like better IC or speaker cables.

 

And I did not recommend the aerial to George, I just confirmed what he wanted is not available & that was the biggest one Antiference make