Some may have observed that since August I have been messing around with first one and then additionally a second Leak Trough Line “3” mono valve tuner from the early 1960s.
At first with one that was definitely working, and then with one that was reportedly not working. I found it intermittent, which is the most frustrating thing as the fault as such may not show up at the point of testing or servicing!
The first one is lovely, and subject to a slight problem with one of the front panel switches that selects for distant or local transmissions. Effectively it is a built in selectable antenna attenuator to prevent overload and clipping from the powerful signals of a close transmitter. This one now works with a tooth-pick jammed into the switch to maintain the contact! Okay that is a bodge!
It went off the boil - as I thought - because of this switch, and seemingly no amount of waggling the switch would restore decent function ... So I got out the other one that was reportedly non-functional. Well the intermittent nature of the fault in this one meant that I got it going long enough to realise that it was potentially the better one!
As it is now known, the fault was in that most ruinous part, the mains transformer. It is having a transplant, and should be up and running again within the next week.
Far too nice to let it become recycled electronic scrap!
In the meantime I have the first one back in service and running well. Of the two it is noisier and plummier in tone though it never gets that chesty voice on male radio announcers that is the sign that the tone is too fruity! I has been modified at some point though the one currently in dock is completely untouched from original up until its current repairs ...
Probably not of all that much interest to many here, but the way these things work has been a revelation to me. The last time I had regular access to a mono [valve type] FM/VHF tuner was at school up until 1975. That one was an even older type that only worked on three pre-tuned internal adjusted stations. I imagine that it was tuned in situ by the installing engineer. It had three letters on the control: L, T and H, for Light Programme [Radio Two nowadays], Third Programme [Radio Three] and Home Service [Radio Four]. Of course I remember the effect of this on live Radio Three concert relays, but the Trough Lines have revived the memory and brought the thought that sometimes old legends are not exaggerated!
ATB from George
Posted on: 27 November 2015 by Mike-B
George I am afraid you are facing a lot of frustration & little or no satisfaction unless the aerial is mounted on the roof. Inside, in your room, the electrical cables in the roof cavity & walls, pipework & the walls themselves are both blocking & reflecting & also unbalancing the dipole.
There is no reason why a 300 ohm balanced feed line is markedly better or worse than a 75 ohm coax, if it is so then its indicative of the issues above.
I have my aerial installed in the attic, & its line of sight (thru the tiles) to the main (BBC/Captial) transmitter 3.5 miles away. But even so getting it to perform well & avoid distortion was not easy.
Originally it was affected by both bedroom lighting cables, its own aerial & TV cables & the metal rain gutter on one side of the house.
I re-routed the attic wiring around the aerial so all cables ran down the centre line of the attic (& the aerial) & the cables that went out to the sides ran from that centre line out to the side behind the aerial reflector elements (along the gable end wall).
I now have the aerial orientated straight down the roof ridge & even tho' a number of degrees off beam to the main transmitter it is well within the acceptance angle & works perfectly.
My point is rigging a big outdoor aerial inside an attic is not so easy, inside a room has to be double difficult & you might need to bite one or other bullets on this one.
Posted on: 27 November 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Originally Posted by George Fredrik Fiske:
Quickly, during the interval. The coax with the braid on the earth terminal and the signal line on the 75 ohm unbalanced input was quite inferior. I have just broken every rule and fitted the braid to the balanced 300 ohm input and it is not quite as good as the short plain two core on the same inputs though better than the long two core connection. The signal has significantly diminish using un-balanced 75 ohm. Shown by the magic eye and overall quality.
George - as discussed with out BalUn or UnBal then the coax performance will be less than the balanced lead on balanced antennas (such as dipoles, Yagis, loops etc) .. this is just like using an unbalanced audio lead into a balanced audio input - it will work but no optimally.
You could loop the coax half a dozen times in a 10" diameter loop by the antenna - and you will need to put the coax into the unbalanced input on the radio.. it may help - but this really is a case of kludging it.
Mike is right you do need to get the antenna outside. In the past when testing antenna - I have used a tripod and a 10 foot pole on my patio - its got to be better than being inside
Simon
Simon
Posted on: 28 November 2015 by George F
Still being in experimental mode, I messed about with the Loop, and now have really nice quietude.
So I’ll keep the big multi-element for the time when I might have a new house to live in with the chance of an out-door aerial. It would of course still be competition with the Loop!
Probably the most surprising thing I have learned is that the Trough Line is exceptionally sensitive to any Switch Mode Power Supply working in the house! Consequently I had never given the Loop a fair chance before today - at least with determined experiments! Indeed the times when the tuner seemed to be really going well were always in the dark with everything in the house except the fridge and heater was turned off! One lives and learns!
ATB from George
Posted on: 29 November 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk
George, just as an aside, a well designed and implemented switched mode power supply can be effectively electrically very quiet.. it just costs to do this. and in many areas of consumer electronics, quality is often the absolute minimum to meet EMI regulations so as to save cost.. and this can often give SMPS a bad name.. because as you suggest a poorly implemented or designed SMPS is quite a noise generator.
Your internal loop antenna will be more susceptible to wide band noise from noisy electronics in your house of course.
Simon
Posted on: 30 November 2015 by Tabby cat
George sounds like you making some progress now with regard to the ariel experimentation.As you say you always have the indoor to fall back on.I have learnt alot on this thread from Simon and Mike about signal transfer.
Whats The Troughline like for voice reproduction ?
At the weekend I fired up an old Creek 3040 f.m tuner and it was noticeabley more simbilant on voice than my A@R Cambridge T21.So it went back in the cupboard.
Out of interest do you listen to Classic f.m or strictly Radio 3 - 4 ?
Wishing you a good week.
ATB Ian
Posted on: 01 December 2015 by George F
Dear Ian,
I wrote a rather rambling reply to you that I later deleted.
Suffice to say that I now have the Trough Line performing absolutely properly. It is unkind to poor spoken word microphone technique for sure. Popular music radio is rather impossible, but I discovered something very funny listening to local pop radio! David Gray actually does enunciate his words, but usually you cannot hear them. You can with the Trough Line. The song was Babylon!
But on Radio Three and most of Radio Four, spoken word is very fine indeed. Where the tuner comes full stride into its own is with Radio Three broadcasts of classical music, and particularly on live relays.
I would venture the view that it is certainly the nicest radio that I have ever heard on the type of music that I love best ...
I am running my Loop aerial, rather than the big multi-element, given that provided the computer and router are turned off, there is no difference in the result. And the Loop is acceptable in my living room!
One day I may live in a house where I can fix the big aerial properly on the roof, but this is impracticle here.
Anyway, after some serious head scratching over SMPS noise, I found the problem. The good news is that I shall not be using the computer except for iTunes, and very quick looks at the Forum!
So my posts are likely to become scarcer, which should please some or many!
ATB from George
Posted on: 01 December 2015 by Tabby cat
Hi George,
Thanks for your reply and pleased its sounding pretty good at the moment.I always think spoken word is the biggest test with radio broadcast.I think if your tuner is right and you don't get to much sibilance everything else follows.Yeah David Gray I must dig out The White ladder album as its a good album,have'nt played it for years.
Where did you get the Troughline and for how much?
ATB Ian
Posted on: 01 December 2015 by George F
Dear Ian,
I was given the pair of them years ago. At my last house I briefly set up the one I am not using now with a roof aerial. It was superb, but not as good as the one I am using now. When I moved I assumed that VHF/FM was not possible, so gave them to a friend, and they came home to roost in August, which caused me to start experimenting.
This one was restored to life including a new [unused old stock] transformer a few weeks ago now, because the one that was working already went off the boil. As it transpired, this was simply an old switch that selects between distant station and local going on the blink, but the effort to get the one I am now using going was certainly worthwhile. For a start it was completely original and untouched, so a good basis for gentle restoration.
Best wishes from George
Posted on: 07 December 2015 by George F
I never thought that a replay or radio component would affect my listening habits.
But the Trough Line has. I no longer have to consider what to listen to but simply look at the BBC Radio Three schedule, and if the evening concert looks likely, then I am booked.
Of course this is healthy and takes me back forty years when I used to listen to every Radio Three evening concert ...
The naturalness of it has me reconsidering everything I thought I understood about music replay.
The complete lack of over-weight bass is a relief. There is absolutely no separation of the ensemble into artificial constituent parts. The sense of distance is wonderfully conveyed. The quality is bright but not forward. Trumpets have that fizz which is right in Forte. The winds are sublime, percussion is clearly not in front of everything else, and the string orchestra has that true range of timbres ...
This so good that it leads me to an inescapable conclusion. I must finish the job of exchanging to all valve and electrostatic. The doubts crept in four and more years ago with the arrival of the ESLs. The Trough Line has simply hammered the point home. And also made me brave enough to jettison stereo reproduction of music ...
I may be forgiven a final Hifi Corner post, perhaps? In the 2016 System Pictures thread that HH is bound to start very soon. A system that will be guaranteed to be unique in the context. Sometime after Easter, I reckon!
Best wishes from George
Posted on: 07 December 2015 by Tabby cat
Great report George.
Out of interest are you playing more radio at the moment or do you stream off your Mac book mini ?
I am intrigued about your future valve pre and power amps.I know you are tempted by the Leak Poweramp.What about about a Quad 2 that would dovetail the E S L nicely.Not sure what preamp you have in mind.Have you thought about Croft as they have a great reputation.
You should be able to free up some cash selling the V1 and 100.
Last night I taped a Noel Gallagher live broadcast on radio 2.All acoustic really enjoyed it...ah the magic of radio !
You must embrace the valve amps.....your audio destiny awaits.
Cheers Ian
Posted on: 08 December 2015 by George F
Dear Ian,
It is pure old fashioned FM/VHF on the Trough Line. Just so full of musical communication and power. Not weighty or even obviously impressive, but a "wicked fly" to even an old and canny trout.
I cannot really answer the details of exactly how this will work out - not least because very few [if any] would follow me into mono replay using twelve Watts of valve power amplification into a speaker itself now with fifty eight years of production. And also out of deference to our hosts, Naim and hoopla.
I imagine that my next and last post on "my system" on the Forum will be System Pictures 2016, by about Easter.
I may allow myself a brief review, but possibly not.
I can tell you one thing though, and that is the Trough Line is very mains electricity sensitive. It can be be supremely quiet so long as no computer or router is also on.
I am sure that Leak made better valve amplifiers than Quad, and that Quad made better pre-amps. The solution is a well made passive pre-amp with a Leak power amplifier, considering that any modern DAC [for iTunes] will be very strong [so requiring significant attenuation], and the Trough Line requires slight attenuation for the mono Leak power amp.
Please forgive my relatively un-infornative replay, but this is work in progress. The exact result is not quite predictable.
On the music front, Sibelius being 150 years old soon, I have discovered that Decca have issued some of their greatest 1950s recordings from the likes of Eric Tuxen. Of these my own reference point is the Fifth Symphony with the Danish State Radio Orchestra with Tuxen. The performance really had not been prefigured on records or since equalled. Worth the price of the whole set, and to place along side the pioneering recordings by Robert Kajanus [with the London Symphony Orchestra] in 1930 and 1932 ...
ATB from George
Posted on: 21 December 2015 by Tabby cat
Hi George,
Glad the troughline is bringing much joy and with the Christmas radio season on us we should be getting some tasty concerts,programmes..
Have you discussed your aims for April time with One Thing Audio with regard to the amp side.Will they loan you stuff for you to evaluate ?
ATB Ian
Posted on: 21 December 2015 by Mr Underhill
Hi George,
It is great that the Troughlines are doing so much for you and very much look forward to your reports on the Leak. I completely agree that at live concerts I do not hear the forensic unpicking of the elements in the orchestra that stereo can present .....but, I love both. One of the pigs of recording live music is the way a recording can unpick a performance, it appears to emphasis the negative, putting a microscope to any flaw was not evident when listening live; perhaps this is why professional musicians are SO sensitive to being recorded ...I have often had to take oaths as to whom recordings will be circulated to.
Have a great Christmas and New Year
Martin
Posted on: 21 December 2015 by Tabby cat
Martin,
Sorry to go off topic and I respect this is Georges thread.
Just looked at your profile and see you are useing a Modright LS 36 preamp.A mate is useing the LS100 pre with Pevane valves and Consonance cyber 211 monoblocks into Focal speakers.
Really rate Modright stuff.Amazing sound and great Value for money.
Happy Christmas to you and George
Posted on: 21 December 2015 by George F
I am delighted by the sheer musical communication of the Trough Line. As a mono device it naturally enough does not have a tendency to deconstruct the music, but rather leaves it as bound together ensemble without false separation or strange layering effects, but there is far more to it than that. The detail is quite sufficient, and between the Trough Line and the one ESL there is the almost tangible sense of natural and proportionate distance from the performers, and yet strangely the sense of space round the players is complete. I have not often heard this with other systems, and never to extent that this simple system brings, and this has its significance, because players modify their performance for any given space. The result is to make sense of why certain musical things are done this way or that.
I probably going to be in a position to to complete the system with a mono amp sooner than I had thought possible.
My plan is essentially to completely divide the digital side from the analogue, as the Trough Line does not like the computer on when it is working. So I shall get a modest USB DAC with headphone output and listen to the digital side exclusively on headphones. This simplifies the amplifier situation as essentially it will be a one source system, thus obviating the need for a dedicated pre-amplifier of any sort beyond that which constitutes the output stage of the Trough line. The Trough Line has a quite sufficient output to drive a mono amplifier directly, and, as I retained the volume control during the repairs, all it will take is to plug the Trough Line output lead directly into the power amplifier input.
Very much working on the keep it simple basis.
I am not sure that it would be all that wise [or polite] to post a review of the finished arrangement on the Naim Forum though. If it were to appear at all, then only in the Padded Cell I would think!
Happy Christmas to all my friends here! ATB from George
