Miklos Perenyi playing the Six Bach Cello Suites.

DVD is seemingly available on Amazon.

Dear Winki,

I rather assumed that it was not a commercial film!

Never even thought of looking!

Thank you for the prompt. This has been expensive weekend for recordings!

Best wishes from George

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFcGkXWOkU0

Not much on the video side, but the audio of the Fournier/Bach appears to be available at the above link if anyone else's interest was piqued by the above comment.

The old DG recording of Fournier is still available for less than £11 on amazon.co.uk

Old but wonderful! The youtube linked above is good, but the CDs are definably clearer and truer.

I looked up the Hungaroton DVD of Miklos Perenyi, and it is not the same film I found, but I’ll get it anyway. 

It may of zero interest but Perenyi and Fournier both use the  old fashioned fairly upright style of cello playing with a short spike. This was the normal style till Paul Tortellier pioneered the virtually forty-five degree angle for the instrument using a very long spike.

Similar changes occurred in double bass technique. When I played the bass I used to have the instrument almost exactly upright with the minimum possible amount of spike sticking out. Instead of the instrument leaning into the player, the player leans into the instrument. It is crucial that the instrument [cello or bass] is as close as possible to the player, in a manner like the player wraps himself round the instrument ... 

ATB from George

Dear George. Thank you very much for posting this. He gets out of the way and just leaves the music. It is very special playing.

That is what I thought. Great and self-effacing playing that serves the music ...

Amazingly I had never encountered his playing two days ago. 

Thanks for you reply. Best wishes from George

Dear George,

Thanks for highlighting the cellist Miklós Perényi (along with Fournier).  Wonderful players they both are.  I have a handful of recordings of Perényi but mostly they are with him in a chamber setting.  I have never heard the complete Bach Suites (until your post here) but I do have two recordings with one suite each.

 Suite No. 3 in C major, BWV 1009

Suite No. 6 in D major, BWV 1012

I would be interested in determining when the youtube video was recorded?  I don't know but I'd say maybe late 80's / early 90's.  Could be way off but the above two recordings would point to a slight change in perspective / style (although it is still clearly Perényi)  Maybe it is just that the acoustics are much different?

I wasn't aware of the DVD and will get it too if I can find it for a reasonable price.

It is not of zero interest in pointing out the position of a player in relation to his instrument, at least to me.  This is a fascinating subject (as a player) since this is an issue from the first moment you begin to form a relationship with any instrument.  Every teacher I have ever had has some opinion on this matter (do this / don't do that).  There is some merit to putting in some thought to this as it can be a science with physics affecting the outcome but what is amazing is that we can mention some very famous players who break all the rules and appear to be very unconventional but still achieve what they need to.  I think in the end it is an individual decision.  Maybe it starts from learning it the wrong way but I could also be that a performer listens to their own body in order to produce the sound they want.

To a listener, none of this matters but you are correct in pointing out Perényi's position with the cello.  In effect, the cello is more vertical which changes the position of his bowing arm (lower wrist but closer to body) and left arm (higher but further from the body).  The scroll is higher so the player also will have a tuning peg in his left ear.  It seems to me that this is closer to how you would hold / play a viol?

The other extreme is to use an endpin that is not straight.  Being able to angle the pin in affect raises the lower bout and lowers the scroll.  The cello angle relative to the body does become slightly flatter.

As you can see then changing the position changes the outcome and theoretically produces a different sound.  The angles are different with how your left hand moves across the neck and fingerboard.  The bow will move across the strings at different angles.

This is a complicated subject and I am sure their are those who study this from a scientific perspective and of course every player has to figure this out on a daily basis.  In the end, I think it is like a persons fingerprint - very individual.  You can't really copy someone else and everyone is limited by there own anatomy and posture and physical limitations.

....

It is crucial that the instrument [cello or bass] is as close as possible to the player, in a manner like the player wraps himself round the instrument ... 

George, I should also add that this is an important statement.  Further to this though, I believe Perényi's position just looks more natural (and in relation to the instrument).  

Another point about position (and the study of it) is that these days more is known about injuries and what causes them.  With occupations prone to repetitive injuries the belief is that you can avoid these types of injuries if you are aware of a correct body position.  This tends to change things from maybe be historically correct to the physics guiding your philosophy.  In this respect, I don't know which is better for the body in the end.  

To me, Perényi does look more natural.  I do know personally that in the Tortellier position, your bowing elbow will always be higher (closer to the height of your shoulder) more often.

This thread has prompted me to play this, while we have a (rather late) lunch. It's beautifully played and, being on ECM, very well recorded, with a lovely natural and clear sound. 

Dear Doug,

I was very lucky in my teachers on the double bass. All insisted that before you ever even start a practice session that you get completely comfortable with the instrument. Fortunately all three were of the old school sort who deplored swaying about and also used the old style of sitting on a stool that is virtually at standing height in any case. Then bed the bass well into the right thigh. This inherently gets an upright position. The potential problem is that bowing the bottom string and you can easily get a bit over enthusiastic and rub the bow and all the rosin into your right leg! My playing dinner suit was certainly not suitable for a black tie party because of all the rosin that gets everywhere! I was alway taught to keep the bowing arm as low and as close to the torso as possible for better tone.

As it goes what finished my bass playing was a repetitive strain problem in my left hand. The tendons on the back of the hand would blow and and be terribly painful. Imagine a feeling similar to a wasp sting. This was not related to my position, but just bad luck. The problem does not happen otherwise. 

The real problem is that bass strings are heavy and require a lot of force down onto the fingerboard to get a good tone and secure pitch. If I’d played the cello then likely as not I would not have had the problem.

As it goes, I have a certain fascination with the stance of players, particularly cellists and bass players. 

And I would no doubt have adopted a similar way to Perenyi, if I’d played the cello. Of course I never really played the cello, but I did surprise a cellist once after she allowed me to play her instrument. I put the spike right in and played it like a Viola da Gamba with the bottom bout gripped between my calves and knees! It is easier than you might imagine. I got an absolutely huge tone! That is bass bowing technique though. The bass is a rather inefficient instrument for effort that physically goes in and what comes out!

As it goes, today I am on my third listen right through the Bach Suites. It is like I am meeting an old friend not encountered for years. These performances are so unaffected and fresh.

A wonderful find!

Best wishes from George

a bump to keep this on the first page

Here is s photo of Franz Posta playing the double bass with the traditional Central European standing position for the double bass, but he is clearly very close to the instrument. It is possible that he is perched, here, on a high stool, but this merely saves standing up for long periods.  

He was first bass player in the Czech Philharmonic for a long time after 1945. He was one of the greatest bass players of all time. 

You can see how his bowing arm is very low and close to a line straight down from the shoulder. This is important as it allows gravity to produce the tone rather than strength. Strength would be required when this line is not observed, which produces a forced tone, rather than a pure and powerful one. 

What this style allows is for the dynamic and tone colour to be graded with the least physical effort and so is less tiring over the course of a long concert or rehearsal. And allows for great subtlety of playing

I have listened to the Perenyi Bach recording again. I think Dozey sums it up very nicely :

 "He gets out of the way and just leaves the music. It is very special playing."

Best wishes from George

Indeed.  Just the Bach.  And I agree about Fournier. I prefer only implied romanticism rather than the over indulgence with which these and other Bach works are often played.

This is something I learnt far too late but grateful for none-the-less. I was lucky to meet a violist who taught me to bow without using any gripping of the hand or forearm. As if you were pushing a pen across a desk just by leaning against it. Instant change from rank amateur hard sound to the real full thing.  Of course, it's very difficult to switch off those pesky hand and arm muscles after all these years.

A vinyl set of the Bach Suites played by Perenyi on Hungaroton are on auction at you-know-where.  Already at £62 with ten hours to go.

If you can accept DVD release then Hungaraton have them released this way and of course much less expensive!

On the UK branch of Amazon for £22.

Mind you Hunaraton made very good vinyl records ...

ATB from George

Thanks George. I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for the vinyl.  At present, enjoying the youtube link you posted.  Thanks for sharing.

I have just orfered this DVD. My first music DVD!

ATB from George

And it has arrived.

The youtube link is the Hungaraton film, but the real DVD is far finer. In fact excellent by any standards.

I could not believe that the youtube film - sound track - was actually a completely professional effort.

The real thing is splendid.

£22 for the DVD, and will certainly be my “go to” recording of the Cello Suites now!

ATB from George

Amazingly, this is a co-production with MTV from 1996!

Who would have guessed that?

Delighted I am ... Yoda voice!

Anyone who loves the Bach Cello suites should add this to their collection, and those wishing for an introduction could do a lot worse than start here ... 

ATB from George