S U P E R L U M I N A - Is this the biggest improvement ever?
Posted by: Martin.L on 08 November 2015
I naively used to assume that the NAC A5 are perfect...
Just got the speaker cables and could not believe that cables could make this difference.
Clearly these cables need a good warm up and run-in before they are going to approach their optimum sound and I have been told that it takes one week for them to really start to disappear behind the music. Yet from the off with only day’s warm up this upgrade delivered a more musical result than the majority of others.
The system now creates an effect of a non-electronic device, the end result gives the overall feel of a much more realistic space. The wider and deeper soundstage has very consistent perspectives.
These luminas changed the system, it became a variety of moods expressed in tones that are almost endless, they depend actually upon the great working together of all the tonal attributes– color, quality, pitch, and loudness.
The heavy tones assert their will with a more insistent energy; the long tones upon which we linger make a deeper and more lasting impression; while the light and short tones in contrast become points of mere passing and transition.
The contrasts between piano and forte – loudness that brings the tones so near that they may seem threatening in their insistence; softness that makes them seem far away and dreamlike.
The treble is delicate - sweet and clear. Voices are strongly holographic, female singers do not screech and are outstandingly articulate.
The energy it managed to extract from the albums was nothing short of astounding.
It also preserved the ability to put the music before the sound...
It makes you want to keep on listening! can't get to sleep.
What a great project.
Good job naim,
Martin
In the same way a 552 fine-tunes a system that previously had a 252.
It is not a matter of polarisation, but saying what you hear the difference to be.
The SL speaker cable is so obviously silly-better than NAC A5 that it should not be about polarised opinions - other than the earth is flat or not could be said to polarised opinion.
NAC A5 is a good value for money cable that serves well. SL speaker cable cost a lot more and takes the system performance to another level.
The discussion is really 'should I purchase it or not' which is personal and I personally respect not spending money I don't have.
I'm not going to purchase Statement Monoblock power Amps, but if I posted that they were really not much different to a NAP500 and that anyone saying otherwise is polarising the discussion then that is rather odd.
DB.
I think the comparison can be split into two parts:
1) Is SL sonically better than NAC A5?
2) Does SL represent value for money?
Ignoring cost (item 2) I think everyone listening to SL vs NAC A5 would agree it sounds better, I believe it's an absolute scale.
Value for money is a relative scale so given system differences, available funds etc it's perfectly reasonable for people to reach different conclusions for #2.
As you well know Gary (based on me buying 45m of the darn stuff), I'm a fan of SL and think it sounds significantly better than NAC A5.
Earlier comparisons in this thread (e.g. SL vs 2nd 555PS) seem to suggest a perception of better inherent value in say a 555PS. Paying loads for "some bits of wire" may seem a hard sell but it would be an interesting comparison to determine which yields the biggest sonic improvement.
fascinating to hear different opinions over SL but i guess this sort of discussion is hardly new anyhow...
perhaps this is one of the reasons why i havent bought SL, i may then come up with yet another 'opinion' and confuse everybody in the process... 
enjoy
ken
I would very much agree with Graham's analysis and if I might be so bold as to develop it a bit.
Determine the following:
1. The significance of the improvement offered by SL speaker cables.
2. That significance in YOUR system bearing in mind superior balck boxes will yield even better results.
3. The cost of SL cables vs the degree of improvement offered (good old VFM), tough to evaluate I know.
4. How many meters of the stuff you need. This has a massive influence on 3 above. I was fortunate and only needed 3m runs and I do acknowledge that those who need longer runs (let alone those with active systems) may find the VFM test a tougher one to pass.
5. Think long term. I intend to upgrade in the future and am confident I will get more from my SL speaker cables as I do so. But for now ex-dem 3m runs of these cables passed the VFM test with a mid-Classic system.
I have used NACA5 for donkeys years and it offers fine VFM. It really isn't about polarising views but deciding when a component upgrade (and I consider the SL cables as components) offers VFM. It is also about sharing ones findings regarding new discoveries with the forum. I have benefitted from others sharing their findings on here and feel duty bound to do likewise.
The usual warning applies however - try before you buy.
Or as I used to say, if it don't sound posh, don't part with your dosh!
I would agree that the place to start when upgrading cables is the source to pre interconnect and I have used a Chord Sarum Tuned Aray interconnect for some time now so was eager to see if the SL speaker cable complemented this interconnect and the rest of my system. It did - in spades.
It might be preferable to have all SL cables in ones system but I acquired the Chord interconnect long before SL hit the market. My understanding from those that have a full SL loom that the best way (in SQ terms) to introduce SL cables (assuming you can't afford to buy the full loom in one hit) is first the interconnect, second the speaker cables and last the DIN(s) to XLR(s) (pre to power).
This is my experience, those with full SL looms might offer further clarification/illumination. I would certainly be interested in hearing other experiences.
I did the speaker cables first followed by the interconnect. I've yet to be convinced the SL Din-XLR is better than the Super Aray Din -XLR that was in the system before the SL cables were released, but I still need to evaluate that properly as there were too many new cables in the system when I did have a brief listen.
enjoy
ken
Regarding differences in opinion between different people, the fact that they are also mostly different systems is probably highly significant. Given Naim's own reliance on the speaker cable to provide the inductance necessary for stability of its power amps, it surely is possible that with different power amps the interaction will be slightly different. Add to that the speakers, where every different model will provide a different load, varying in a different way with frequency, and the linking cable will add to the combined reactance seen by the amp, whatever the degree of significance it may or may not have. That last point is very significant: with one amp and speaker combination the contribution by the cable could be undetectable, whereas with another it might have a small influence - and the effect could be different with the same amp and different speakers, or the same speakers with different amps, let alone different amp and speakers.
But any difference in reality is likely to be subtle, and, in my opinion, only worth spending that sort of money on when everything else is as good as it can possibly be, otherwise the implication is that the cable has more effect than the active components...
... My understanding from those that have a full SL loom that the best way (in SQ terms) to introduce SL cables (assuming you can't afford to buy the full loom in one hit) is first the interconnect, second the speaker cables and last the DIN(s) to XLR(s) (pre to power).
This is my experience, those with full SL looms might offer further clarification/illumination. I would certainly be interested in hearing other experiences.
this, apparently, is the prevailing 'wisdom'... but, as usual, different people have different takes on it...
comparisons with other cables aside, my experince of the SL interconnect is very good indeed -- this, and positive experiences from others here, hints at that a full loom will probably give more of the same in my system. but the required outlay is, erhhmm.. financially embarrassing for me 
enjoy...
ken
Also, thanks Nigelb the last step would be the SL interconnect between the Pre and Amp, not PS and Amp.
BTW Nigelb, with your own personal upgrade, did you get more from STA Interconnect , or the SL Speaker upgrade?
Also, thanks Nigelb the last step would be the SL interconnect between the Pre and Amp, not PS and Amp.
BTW Nigelb, with your own personal upgrade, did you get more from STA Interconnect , or the SL Speaker upgrade?
Umm...that is a tricky one to answer because the STA interconnect (replacing the Hiline) and the SL speaker cables (replacing NACA5) were introduced about two or three years apart and I have made a few improvements to my system in that time, not least the addition of a NAP 250DR (which really is a significant step up from the 250.2 by the way). I would say I was more struck by the introduction of the SL speaker cables but I have a strong feeling this is because of the aforementioned interim upgrades which I would suggest the Sarum TA interconnect is also now revealing.
So in all honesty I cannot say which has produced the biggest uplift in SQ. The only way to be sure of this is to do side by side tests of each cable(s) at the same time. I do have a strong feeling however that the two cables are showing a kind of synergy (a word that I accept is much overused) and have allowed the system (of black boxes) to perform at (or near) to it's best. You might call it added transparency.
Then again you might not!
Right I've got my tin hat on so here goes.
I home demoed SL speaker cable (3m lenghts) against my then current NACA5 using my then NDX (now NDS), 282/SupercapDR, 250DR and....well....err....I have SL speaker cables as a permanent fixture. I would argue therefore the benefits from using SL speaker cables can be heard in the middle echelons of the Classic range. Switching back and forth between SL and NACA5 during my home demo only confirmed the superiority of the SL in my mid-Classic system. I also suspect that the new Classic DR power amps exploit the transparent qualities of the SL speaker cable (or the other way round or both) but this is only supposition as I have not done this direct comparison of DR vs non-DR power amps on the SL speaker cable.
Having said this I fully expect that the benefit in SQ from the SL speaker cables will become more evident as you go up the Classic range and into 500 territory.
Right, am now retiring to my bunker to avoid all the flack from the NACA5 apostles (of which I was one until I heard the SL speaker cable).
Bizarrely, I have to agree with you here. I had a quick listen to some SL speaker cable with an NDX/282/200 and Kudos X2s. There was a very clear and obvious improvement; it sounded as though the soundstage had suddenly moved forwards into the listening room, with increased detail and clarity. It seems ludicrous even to contemplate the idea of a 5m pair of cables that cost not much less than the combined price of the power amp and speakers they connect to. Would I do it? In the course of time, yes, I probably will. For me, there is the additional incentive that the only other way to improve this system would involve adding more boxes, which I don't want to do, otherwise I'd at least consider buying power supplies instead.
Chris makes a very valid point. It depends on where you are. If say you had CDS3/555/552/300/Focal Sopra 1 wired with hiline and Naca if I were looking to upgrade I guess I'd be thinking 500 and better speakers but if room limitations meant the Sopra 1 was the end of the road I would possibly think about fine tuning with some SLs or alternative.
Relative values though create me a problem? 555PSU £6k XPS2 £3K so 2x the cost for a big uplift in performance. Naca £25 per metre? - SL £600 per metre (I'm not sure if those prices are single or twin runs?) - eye watering figures when you think about it for cables. Nice dilema to have though!!!
- SL £600 per metre (I'm not sure if those prices are single or twin runs?) - eye watering figures when you think about it for cables. Nice dilema to have though!!!
£600 per Stereo pair, i believe
i agree with you re 'nice dilemma' to have...
likely i will go for the snaxo242 SL cable first --still not exactly 2pence...
its an addictive hobby this...
enjoy
ken
When I purchased three DIN-XLR leads for my SNAXO, it was obviously the case that these cost several times the cost of the equipment.
But I don't want the answer to be that Naim decide to increase the price of the Snaxo!
Yes I'd like it to be less expensive, but I didn't have to buy it - there are alternatives, which I didn't really get on with, so it is personal choice.
Incidentally - there are still big sonic and musical improvements centering around the Snaxo from my own occasional experiments with it.
For me I find a refreshing synergy of these SL Cables with the Naim equipment which I like a lot.
Anyone who spend a lot of money on HiFi is obviously seeking something that is special for them and it is a matter of funding and personal priorities.
I consider the SL cables as easily a 'box-upgrade' in what they bring along - and having a finite life I want the cables sooner rather than later with the usual yearly price-rises added.
Ken - you have made the right call to consider the Pre to Snaxo cable first, as it delivers most for the outlay IMO.
DB.
When I purchased three DIN-XLR leads for my SNAXO, it was obviously the case that these cost several times the cost of the equipment.
But I don't want the answer to be that Naim decide to increase the price of the Snaxo!
Yes I'd like it to be less expensive, but I didn't have to buy it - there are alternatives, which I didn't really get on with, so it is personal choice.
Incidentally - there are still big sonic and musical improvements centering around the Snaxo from my own occasional experiments with it.
For me I find a refreshing synergy of these SL Cables with the Naim equipment which I like a lot.
Anyone who spend a lot of money on HiFi is obviously seeking something that is special for them and it is a matter of funding and personal priorities.
I consider the SL cables as easily a 'box-upgrade' in what they bring along - and having a finite life I want the cables sooner rather than later with the usual yearly price-rises added.
Ken - you have made the right call to consider the Pre to Snaxo cable first, as it delivers most for the outlay IMO.
DB.
thanks DB -- its a slightly less steep next step after my SL IC, which definitely did 'something' very good for my system...
enjoy
ken
It should give you more of everything you already got with the SL IC, but I also found more in lower registers and better dynamics. I home-auditioned mine first to confirm, so always try to do that first, but it should be very obvious. Musically I found it had the effect of holding my attention better to the music and it being more interesting to listen to.
DB.
It should give you more of everything you already got with the SL IC, but I also found more in lower registers and better dynamics. I home-auditioned mine first to confirm, so always try to do that first, but it should be very obvious. Musically I found it had the effect of holding my attention better to the music and it being more interesting to listen to.
DB.
all the effects you mention are things that i appreciate in my system DB. i doubt i will bother to audition first -- this wire should just work better in an all-naim system right?
hopefully someone will treat me to an unusual xmas present... :-)
enjoy
ken
That is right.
For Passive full-loom SL cables you require, in the order stated I would suggest:
1. SL IC Source to Pre
2. SL Speaker Cables
3. SL DIN-XLR Pre to Power
For Active full-loom SL cables you require, in the order stated I would suggest:
1. SL IC Source to Pre
2. SL 4pin DIN-DIN Pre to Snaxo PS (usually Supercap)
3. SL Speaker Cables
4. SL DIN-XLR Pre to Power
That is what I found opened-out the system best and inter-worked with the remaining non-SL cables as I upgraded mine, bit by bit. This is just my opinion. I put the DIN-XLR last as although it will offer a lot when the SL speaker cable is present, I found it didn't like NAC A5 in my system and sounded a bit 'lumpy' - with the SL speaker cable it works well, so do it last.
DB.
Thanks DB, next purchase Snaxo 362!
Cdx2/Hi Cap DR/282/250.2/200/250.2/PMS Tri Amped Briks/Lavender/Standard Naim IC and Fraim Lite.
Edit, I know SC DR Burndy!
but I didn't have to buy it - there are alternatives, which I didn't really get on with, so it is personal choice.
Well ain't that the truth. There is currently a "riot going on" in another nameless hifi forum vis a vis VFM or lack of it in relation to high end hifi. No one makes you buy it - Naim or otherwise!!!!!
but I didn't have to buy it - there are alternatives, which I didn't really get on with, so it is personal choice.
Well ain't that the truth. There is currently a "riot going on" in another nameless hifi forum vis a vis VFM or lack of it in relation to high end hifi. No one makes you buy it - Naim or otherwise!!!!!
its hard for me to think what more could ever be added to this sort of discussion, which crops up evrey now and then...
enjoy...
ken