Help Upgrading - Lower Bass Seeked

Used n-Sub.

chris

I'd suggest at least trying a 200 power amp. You'll be surprised what a bit of welly will do for the low end extension and drive. The obvious replacement speaker is the GB1i, which will retain the qualities of the DB1 that you like, but I'm not convinced that the 100 is really up to the task. 

Get a bk electronics sub there cheap and work well with stereo systems, I've got rel subs and my bk was half the price and sounds as good as them. If you like the sound you got then a sub can be a cheap upgrade 

    I still prefer a 2.1 setup to a straight stereo system and even on my floor standers i add a sub as the only speakers I have ever heard cost £15000 + to hit as low as a good sub but as always a home demo is advised before you decide 

+1 to the above suggestions. (Did I mention that I have a NAP 200 and an N-Sub?!)

Thanks for the suggestions.

A sub hadn't even crossed my mind. I know nothing about them and I'm not sure I have anywhere one could go. I'll have to read up on them.

What affect does a sub have on the sound stage? If I play something, like a recording of a double bass, sitting stage left, doesn't a sub 'muddy' the imaging?

Specs on your speakers say they go down to 50 Hz, so depending on your music you're missing a lot of information by not hearing the lowest 20-30 Hz of the recording. There's quite a bit of musical impact/energy on the bottom end, as you suspect.

I don't own a sub, but it seems a good choice with your speakers, esp in a rather squarish/smallish room. Based on what I've read bass is often recorded in mono and fed balanced through both speakers in modern stereo recording. Even if its not, directionality and imaging probably aren't big factors with regard to bass. Its more about occupying space the room. With a quality sub you should be able to adjust to fill in the specific frequency range you need and may also be able to deal (to some degree) with room modes. A fast, quality sub shouldn't muddy the imaging. Correctly set-up it should enhance the listening experience.

I don't think that any specific speaker brand is the issue here. It's about Mat supplementing his existing speakers with a sub or moving to an alternate speaker that reaches deeper, obviating a sub, in which case the amp could come into play.

Joerand

Thank you for trying to inform that what the issue is. But may I ask you, do you have specific experience of Dynaudio and Naim together?

I know what I am talking about and have tested dac v1/100 on my Dynaudio x16 and x32 speakers that I own

There is much advice on the forum that is just incorrect and misleading. The NAP 100 is no slouch and not bass light at all, However when I did hear the PMC DB1 gold speakers, the imaging was superb, and so was PRAT, but it was so bass light, that there is no way I would buy those speakers. Dynaudio X16 does it all, imaging, PRAT and huge dose of bass.

I suggest the OP to try out the Dynaudio X14. 

Surely just saying 'get some Dynaudio speakers' is a perfect example of exactly that type of advice? As Joe says, a particular speaker cannot be identified as the answer without trying it in the room, where it may or may not provide an improvement. I still believe a bigger amp is the way forward, but I won't give a guarantee - it's merely an option to try. When I tried some DB1i speakers, on Partington stands, in my room I thought they had superb bass extension. That was with a 150x amp. 

analogmusic,

I have no experience with Dynaudio, so can't comment for or against. I'm not suggesting they are not a viable option, just would fall into the 'alternate speaker' category I stated above. It's a wide open world for other 'deeper' speakers with the alternate amp potentially coming into play. Don't be so defensive of Dynaudio; no one here is admonishing them.

Totally agree that Dynaudio's generally do plenty of bass (I own some and have heard several other models), however the OP also stated they need to be happy near a rear wall. Another trait of Dyns is that they need a plenty of space so on those grounds probably not a good option here. 

apologies to all on this thread, I did not address my comments to anyone here about wrong advice. 

I was thinking more of the endless posts about Hugo and Linn KDS is better than Naim sources (I also own a Hugo and tested KDS/1 extensively) but if one wants the Naim sound, then having a Naim source gives more of the Naim sound. Anyway everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Yes the Dynaudio do need a some space from the back wall, and at home I found it is actually very little.

anyway quite a different range of ideas so nice to have the option of trying them all out and see what suits best.

Mat

What stands are you using with the DB1s...Going down to 50hz is still low enough - and with room effect giving lower. Less than optimal stands will suck up low energy instead of helping the speakers sing it out.

Other considerations..

Swap out the biwire link plates with jumpers, preferably with the same cables coming from the amp.

Try looking for PMC FB1 floorstanders, your budget should cover some used ones - these were very popular a good few years back and won awards - being easy to place and drive.

im sure the nap 100 would be fine here. If it would run out of steam in this set up you would hear it as a hardening of upper mid and treble if pushed to high volumes , given that tweeter units can present a tougher load than bass units.

Other than that your system is nicely balanced. Enjoy it for what it does best.

cheers

I once owned GB1is, which I used with a SuperUniti, and they worked really well. A friend of mine also has some, which he uses with a Nait 5i. They sound ok, but rather gutless. Even if you turn the volume up they sound a bit gutless, but a bit louder. To work well, I believe they need a 200 or equivalent, such as my then SU. I'm really not a fan of using big speakers and little amps. I also once had some nSats, which I once tried with a 552/300. The scale and depth that came from those tiny speakers was amazing. This is the logic behind getting a 200. It will kick the DB1 into life and make them sound twice as big. Power and drive in the bass is what is needed here, and you won't get it with bigger speakers on the end of a 100. All IMHO of course. 

Lots of opinions! Thanks for all of them.

The DB1is are sitting on Linn Kan stands. The bass they produce is impressive for their size but no matter what amp I use to power them they are not going to be capable of reproducing the low frequencies that many of the electronic musicians I listen to play around in.

I've read up on subs and for I want I reckon I'd need two since the sound stage is the most important and magical quality of my listening experience. I do not have the room for one, let alone two extra boxes, so unfortunately they are not an option either. The articles I've read also indicate they can be pretty tricky to position correctly.

If you do go down the nap200 route good ones can be found for <£1,000 - I picked one up last week.

Mat, in many ways you are correct, but things with a sub aren't actually as tricky as you imagine them to be.

Get hold of a copy of Room Equalisation Wizard (it's contribution ware, so initially free) and use the 'Room Simulator' dialogue.  You can use this to do a 'theoretical trial' of positioning of main speakers and sub.  This will show you two or three candidate position where a sub will work best, rather than having to try everywhere in the room!

As your main speakers handle everything above 100Hz, a good quality sub won't damage the imaging even if it's off to one side, even the low bass imaging is controlled by the main speakers not the sub.  This may sound crazy but is actually it isn't.  The human ear/brain combination locates low frequency sounds using their harmonics not the fundamental tone.  There will be harmonics above 100Hz, so you'll hear the position defined by the main speakers not the position of the sub - strange but true.  If a bass note is a pure sine wave below 100Hz, you won't be able to locate it anyway, even using main speakers that go low enough.

As the REW 'Room Simulation' will show you, being able to position and control the volume of the low bass emitter (the sub) separately from the mid-bass and midrange, can allow you to get much better defined bass than can be achieved using full range speakers alone.

I used to have a sub; Naim's nSub, which I used with my nSats. It sat on the back wall, next to the sofa. I never had any issues of imaging, as the sub cut in at 65Hz and low frequency sound is pretty well non directional. The interesting thing about the sub is that it improved the sound of everything, even solo violin, which does not have deep bass. My theory is that it was allowing the sound of the studio or venue to come through, which makes everything more realistic. Of course, thevNaim sub was designed to match the speakers, which is why it worked so well. 

Before swapping speakers, I'd try some Partington Dreadnought stands, which will work better than the Kan stands. I'd also lose the biwire links, as suggested above. Playing with speaker positioning will also work wonders - about six inches from the wall with hardly any toe in, and perhaps move them further apart. This will open up the soundstage. You haven't said what speaker cables you are using, so that may be something you can look at. 

I'm playing Kraftwerk's Minimum Maximum live album at the moment, and it has ridiculously low bass, but in my room it's absolutely tight with no overhang. So I know precisely what you mean about the role of bass in electronic music. I really do think that, at a sensible price, Gb1i and a 200 are the way to go, if the tweaks suggested above don't yield the desired results.  

I agree with HH, a more powerful amp should get more out of your speakers. Regarding subs, mine sits out of view behind the sofa, and I certainly wouldn't say it had a negative effect on the soundstage.

If you have any decent dealers in your area, you could probably borrow a NAP200 and a sub of some sort, and have a play with them. If you go for different speakers, again, you're obviously going to need a home dem. 

Look up Tannoy Speakers, these have always been easy to drive, go loud and with good bass.

No amount of amp welly will make up for speakers incapable of reproducing low bass (or heavily rolled off in the bass), so adding a sub or changing the speakers (and buying secondhand) is the only way.

One problem is that different people have different ideas of what constitutes low, and how deep it needs to go to sound right (which to me means like the live sound) also depends on the music you listen to. The lowest fundamental of a bass guitar or double bass with standard tuning is 41Hz - but some bass guitarists drop the tuning, and some double basses go lower, too. Then there are contra-bassoons etc, even without thinking about organs. And if a speaker is maybe 6 dB or more down in-room at 50 Hz even higher notes are being curtailed significantly. At the bottom end you'll hear the instruments because they all are rich in harmonics, but the lowest you might be hearing is the first harmonic. Many people it seems are content with that absent bottom if the rest of the spectrum is OK and they get the 'immediacy' from a relatively enhanced midrange  but for others it is missing information and energy in the music, and missing enjoyment. Yes, that bass needs to be controlled and not 'wallow around', but if it wasn't a necessary part of the music, why do instruments go that low and composers write music that does?