Do renderers sound different

I cannot believe that there is a difference. If the one would transcode to wav and the other not then the wav way would sound better. But if both servers deliver flac, there should be no difference.

Maybe you can start both servers and feed the playlist with the same tracks from both servers, shuffle them and have a blind test?

This question was raised a while back,  it concluded there cannot be, or at there should not be,  any difference in sound between different DLNA/UPnP media servers

 https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...are-affect-sq?page=1

The question of sound differences between FLAC & WAV,  with transcoded FLAC (& other codecs) to WAV, between the various NAS makes & then between NAS & servers such as UnitiServe  & all that compounded by WAV v FLAC differences sounding more pronounced on Naim over other makes ........   it seems to me to be one of those never ending debates like cables ....... 

I use Minimserver and Asset and I can't say I hear a difference. But if you do, I wouldn't be at all surprised. There are so many variables and contributing factors. I can hear differences in digital interconnects and Ethernet cables. WAV sounds better than FLAC to me. Some will nod in agreement, some will think I'm deluded. So it goes. If you can hear a difference there is one. Because in your ears that's all that matters.

Until people can show they've removed human bias from the equation I wont accept anyone can hear the difference.  A double blind A/B test is the only way to do this.

JSH - yes renderers can sound subtly different - I believe this is mostly down to the TCP network performance (timing and window sizes). I happen to ne aware that Naim development recognize that these network dynamics can cause varying degrees of electrical noise that may or may not be audible in a given system and a given set of ears...

However in my experience its the machine/OS that causes this rather than the media server software  itself like Asset or Minimserver for example.

It is subtle - but certainly noticeable. I have also experienced this with my dealers  systems where I was invited to comment why this might be so a few years ago.

Simon

We seem to have a misunderstanding over component terms,  do you really mean renderer JSH?

When I read you original post I read it as you've changed your UPnP media server from Minim to Asset,  that being installed on your NAS (which you don't say the make/model)

As I understand the correct terms for the system components   ...........  

A Renderer is the network player (streamer) such as Naim N series & the Uniti's etc .....  

The Server is the music storage medium, typically network attached storage (NAS) units made my QNAP, Synology etc.,  plus the Naim US & the various alternative storage methods such as Mini Mac.

These two ends of the system work with a media server DLNA/UPnP application that is normally installed on the server (NAS) operating system.  This advertises the server & allows the control point (iOS/Android) to browse the content & to stream music from the server to the renderer.

You cannot be sure unless you have tried the blind test IMHO. But maybe there is a chance that you do not imagine things.

What I do not understand: I often have read about jitters and timing problems. But why should these be a problem? Streamers certainly have a buffer that is filled. And the transfer of data from the buffer to the DA-converter should be completely jitter free!? But this might be off topic here.

Ha!  I can't resist saying......double blind test was it?  

Why do you have to test to hear a difference? Surely if you hear or notice something it's a difference. I am not sure how you can test listening to a work of music....How do you calibrate a test.. What is it you are confirming other than you feel you hear a difference....

To Gert, I think the OP was referring to possible network switching noise.. I can't see what this has to do with sample jitter and sample timing.. Other than electrical noise will be capable in modulating a DAC clock to some extent..if coupled.

Simon

JSH - I'm using asset (on a Qnap nas). I ripped my cd library as flac and originally had asset set to play "as is". Having read a few threads on the subject, I set asset to play flac as wav and I think there has been a (slight) improvement in SQ. might be worth you giving that a go.

I appreciate this is slightly off topic of your OP but thought it worth mentioning as you felt you'd noticed a difference changing from minim to asset And this may give you a further improvement.

Mike-B.  You are right that I've probably got terms round my ears.

The music is stored on a cheap WD Mybook NAS.  As that cannot run anything other than Twonky, it feeds to an old Dell laptop in a cupboard in the hall on which I have Asset and Minim and whch is wired to a BT Home hub5 router.  This feeds to an Apple Express in the sitting room wired to a Uniti so get no background computer fan noise.  It all works beautifully even if it's a bit Heath-Robinson; the two 24-192 files I have stream faultlessly.  The Dell has some externals hanging off it too, which back up each night

Sorry, long boring intro.  The change from Minim to Asset ( it updates more quickly) brought an improvement in SQ I thought, hence the question.  Not double blind of course.  I will now adjust Asset to feed the flacs as wav - so far they've been "as is" - to see if that makes a difference.

But I don't think I'm imagining a smoother top from the Asset feed but I could be!!

Hi JSH,  I guessed that might be the case.

Thanks for the system description,  interestingly non-standard but nothing wrong that I can see.

If you can hear a difference, I can believe you but as I said in my first post - via the link - I did not find the same with my simple test. 

Going back to expand on my first post,  the Minim & Asset UPnP media server is a facilitator to enable the various system parts to communicate with each other & transfer the data,  it does not carry anything as such so I cannot see how it effects sound. 

If there is a sound difference am inclined to agree with Simon & others that its in the hardware & OS.

I recently changed from MinimServer and music library on a Synology DS213 to
MinimServer on a DS414, with the music library still on the original 213. There is a subtle but definite improvement in SQ which is consistent with the change in hardware (and possibly OS parameters as well.)  Also it may be beneficial to have the media server and music library on separate NAS devices.

Vincent van Gough got half way to achieving this...

So can I ask one more question please?  If I use Foobar 2000 as a server will this be identical in sound to Asset and Minim unless there is a difference in hardware and OS as Simon and Mike-B suggest. 

(Foobar is free and has a number of Android apps to control it; it also seems to read files fast)

It is hard to be categoric, but I suspect yes, audible differences are most likely to be noticeable with different OS/hardware/drivers rather than different application software assuming it's 'bit perfect'

Simon