Going from 250 to 300 or doubling up and biamping with another 250

Posted by: feeling_zen on 26 November 2015

First off, this is hypothetical to discuss the merits. It's not a problem I am immediately faced with though I will in a couple years. But is one that, if it arises, not all dealers can answer it seems or have the gear for an AB comparison. We can leave DR out of this. Lets assume that everything is of current spec.

Some background.

Pondering a change I may make in a couple years that removes my current speaker size restriction where I could afford a pair of PMC Fact 12. By that time, something else may come along but let's use this scenario just as the starting point for the discussion. Let's frame the scenario.

Funds are limited.
There is 1 spare shelf on the rack.
I am currently running a pair of Twenty.23s (don't focus on that, lets call them Brand X easy to drives) from a 250.
If presented with funds to acquire a pair of Fact 12 there is a limit to how well a 250 can drive them - they are notoriously demanding.
It is feasible that moderate funds may be available again some time down the line for a second 250.
Going to a NAP500 is not going to happen

With that in mind. I see 3 sensible options (maybe they aren't sensible at all to other members which is the point of the thread).

Go for the Fact 12 (or whatever Brand X hard to drive monster), be careful with a single 250 and then add a second 250 to biamp purely to increase the driveability.
Go for an easier speaker of half the cost (Maybe a Twenty.26 or Fact 8) and move from a single 250 to a single 300
Same as above but do a second (or maybe 3rd) 250 and tri/biamp (not sure how that works with 1 free shelf yet but let's throw it out there).

Actually this does have some more immediate impact to me because if I set my sights on a 300 (assuming I like it after a demonstration) it may affect my decision to DR my current 250 or not. Where current delivery of the power amp is not an issue, I am yet to be convinced by the benefits of bi/triamping on SQ (It would never occur to me with Twenty.23s in a million years to bother). But not everyone may have the same experience.

Posted on: 26 November 2015 by analogmusic

Spending more money on hard to drive speakers and then upgrading the amp is a financially losing proposition and with much less satisfaction compared to moving from NDX to NDS.

Go for compatible speakers, such as Naim's own speakers.

Once you get your 250 upgraded to 250DR, you will not have much more itch to upgrade.

I had only 2 "I must buy this now" moment with Naim.

- When I first heard 202/200. (and I have heard almost every Naim amp after that upto 552/500. Not even 552/500 had me reaching for my credit card, even though I could afford them). They all have the Naim sound, with increasing power and degree of refinement, lower noise floor, huger soundstage, and musicality, but as another forum member I know said "I'm very hard to part with cash", and with easier to drive speakers, for me enjoyment can be had for less money which frees up cash for my family (first and foremost), for holidays and other stuff I love like the retina Macbooks and other tech gadgets.

- When I heard the new 250DR. When I heard it, I knew I had to have one, it was that Naim sound that I love, taken into another league altogether. You could say the same about 300DR and 500 DR

- what I am really saying is that book your upgrade for 250 to 250 DR early. and then see if you need anything else after that.

You should also spend money on upgrading from NDX to NDS.

The 282/HCDR/250DR is a really sweet, refined and engaging sounding amp now....

Hope this helps.

Posted on: 26 November 2015 by analogmusic

I would also add that after hearing what 250 DR is capable of, now the 552DR/500DR is becoming very interesting amplifier that I must listen to one day.

Posted on: 26 November 2015 by blythe

I found active 250s to sound better than a single 300

However, that was active with my NBL's.

Other speakers and configurations may differ but I liked the control, clarity and authority of the 250s which to my ears, instantly sounded better.

Posted on: 26 November 2015 by feeling_zen

Originally Posted by blythe:

I found active 250s to sound better than a single 300

However, that was active with my NBL's.

Other speakers and configurations may differ but I liked the control, clarity and authority of the 250s which to my ears, instantly sounded better.

Yeah that is a good point. I should clarify that at this current time, none of the speakers I'm in love with provide active options so this would be a purely biamped affair if doubling up on 250s.

But never say never. Things change.

Posted on: 27 November 2015 by hungryhalibut

My advice would be that if you can't afford the amp to drive the speakers, then don't get the speakers. Better a 300 with the Fact 8 than two 250s with the Fact 12.

Posted on: 27 November 2015 by analogmusic

Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:

My advice would be that if you can't afford the amp to drive the speakers, then don't get the speakers. Better a 300 with the Fact 8 than two 250s with the Fact 12.

Posted on: 27 November 2015 by feeling_zen

Originally Posted by analogmusic:

Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:

My advice would be that if you can't afford the amp to drive the speakers, then don't get the speakers. Better a 300 with the Fact 8 than two 250s with the Fact 12.

Yup I totally agree with the logic. I guess the issue whether people think 2x250 is also insufficient. My gut reaction is that this might be a viable option. A 250 is certainly good enough, just not powerful enough. But maybe 2 will still fall short. And if so, would 2x250 on a Fact 8 (or whatever) be better or worse than a single 300.

Posted on: 27 November 2015 by 911gt3r

Hi Zen.

If you like Fact 12s, I wouldn't consider Fact 8s as they do not have the inherent and lovely mid band warmth of the 12s.

A single bigger amp is always better than 2 smaller in a bi amped configuration., not to be confused with active drive of speakers! ATB Peter

Posted on: 27 November 2015 by feeling_zen

All good opinions gents. Let's not get too caught up in the specifics of Fact 12 vs something else. The same question could be posed about many speakers at a similar price bracket. It is more of a question about what would people do if they were set on power amp/speaker changes and faced with those options.

Changes to the NDX or 282 are another issue entirely. Though I admit, as good as an NDX/XPSDR is as a source, I do wonder whether it can supply the nourishment Fact 12 (or others of their ilk) need. I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

Posted on: 27 November 2015 by Allante93

What is Naim's strong suit?

""Naim amps can swing transients in a way other similarly powered amps just cannot do.""

What is Naim's Achilles heel?

""The fact is, if you are driving a consistently hard load due to volume and/or speaker load, more power will be required and there is no getting away from that. Naim cater for that with increasingly more powerful amps and the ability to go active (or bi/tri amp simply for power reasons). It costs a lot more to do this with Naim than some others but I don't see a problem in that. They are not about functionality and convenience but about delivering the best you can get and if the design decision leads to more power requiring considerably more expense to do properly then so be it.""

Just joined the Forum earlier this year, so I peg myself as the Armchair quarterback. But, it appears that your dilemma is finding Active Speakers that suits your taste!

From following the Forum, my short list is Ovatures, Nbl's, SBL's, Nbl', Briks, and I think B &W.

I'm familiar with Briks, I lived with them the past 30 years. And they sound better now than ever, and I've been full blown Aktiv with Linn.

Cdx 2/Hi Cap DR/282/250.2/200/250.2/PMS Tri Amped Briks, Next stop Snaxo, SC 2 DR, Burndy!

Hope that was helpful good luck on your quest.