Firmware update 4.11.8 for Naim DAC - so what about sound quality?

I run the nDAC on chassis.  It sounded better that way before the firmware change.  I don't want to go back to floating as it upsets my XPS and i end up with blown fuses.  For that reason i will stick with the current setup.

I concluded the night with the impression that the new sound is more correct. Alone with you by the Sunnyboys bounced along with gangly guitars and renewed energy, Fleetwood Mac's Chain on Rumours had the same renewed life. Lorde, Angus and Julia Stone and lots of other " like a version" recordings were more real sounding. In fact they sounded like people in a small radio station studio singing on a Friday morning ;-)  I think there is more acoustic space coming through in the sound than before and the sound is more delicate and expressive, maybe less chunky.  To a long time nDAC listener that likes to sit in the sweet spot with a glass of wine and listen to lyrics or the tone of a guitar its clearly a much changed sound that tells you more about the recording

My desire to revisit Hugo et al has gone.  Lets see how i feel in a month or two.  It will take that long to revist my music collection in enough depth.

I have upgraded to 4.11.8 and I very much like the new Naim DAC. There might be even better digital-to-analog coverters, of course. But I am grateful that Naim has improved its DAC range and I like the sleekness and the straightforwardness of the classical Naim DAC. For the time being, I will treat myself with a few bottles of good red wine and the nDAC with new interconnect cables or perhaps with a Naim PSU.  Thanks to Naim and to all developers and beta testers. Best, nbpf

Looking forward to trying mine at the W/E now after reading these differing views.

G

Looking forward to your comments, as the ringleader of the Hugo defectors 

nbpf posted:

... For the time being, I will treat myself with a few bottles of good red wine and the nDAC ...

That's quite some treatment...

Had a quick listen after updating last night. Initial impressions are a tightening of the sound which seems to improve dynamics and pace. Certainly aspects that I enjoy from a hi fi system.

More listening tonight...

Cheers

Rick.

I would like to chime in to give some of my findings after latest firmware update 4.11.8.

After listening for 2 sessions, I must confess I was surprised by the improvements brought by the new FW which is very apparent from my system point of view. The immediate improvement is the clarity which has gained a lot from the update, providing much more insightful into the recording. Hidden effects are bouncing out from speakers in spades. Also, there is a sense of more space around instruments rendering the complex music easier to follow. I can understand some may find it more relaxing to enjoy the music. Contrary to its usual darker tone, the HF is more extended this time adding more bites in high pitch but in a good way. I remember how exquisite Hugo present in this department is now rivaled by nDac. Could it be Naim has benchmarked Hugo as their reference point. Notwithstanding all the claims, I would like to extend my appreciation to Naim for a job well done in the most cost effective way. Hats off to you Naim! Now, I have no reservation in keeping my nDAC. I believe those who have 555ps attached are likely to appreciate the improvement more.........

Upgraded yesterday, very easy to do. After a few hours listening, some definite improvements, not a small upgrade. Bass has lost some of its bloat in my system ( Unitiserve/ nDAC+XPS2/ Supernait+Hicap DR/ Proactive D28) and is replaced with faster, more taught bass lines. More detail in the higher registers too, overall more detail coming through. On good live recordings more ambience.  More dynamics too, plucking of acoustic guitar strings sounding very life like. Vocals sounding eerily life like - was listening to Paul Simon Graceland, sounded wonderful, especially Diamonds on the Soles.......Very happy indeed, although cannot comment on Chord comparison, not having heard Chord.

One question - I would be interested to learn what NAIM set out to achieve with the upgrade, other than addition of DSD.

cheers, 

paul

Disposable hero posted:

So it is with a heavy heart that Naim DAC is now permanently removed , to be dispatched for the scheme to reclaim recyclable materials, for use in manufacturing water purification equipment for the developing world. 

WTF???

Is this a cryptic way of saying we should look for your nDAC in the classifieds?

joerand posted:

Disposable hero posted:

So it is with a heavy heart that Naim DAC is now permanently removed , to be dispatched for the scheme to reclaim recyclable materials, for use in manufacturing water purification equipment for the developing world. 

WTF???

Is this a cryptic way of saying we should look for your nDAC on the pf classifieds?

That would be "disposable dac."

joerand, you have heard the nDAC with revised firmware.

CharlieP posted:

joerand, you have heard the nDAC with revised firmware.

No I haven't, but I'll take that as an invitation to drop by and do so

• I believe the main firmware enhancement is adding DSD and optimizing the DSP code to perhaps bring the DAC closer to the NDS.. As they have very similar hardware architectures. . We know now that resequencing and modifying the DSP processor code affects the processing noise and in effect changes the tonal character and feel of the sonic performance...and those with streamer DACs are well aware of this now with firmware changes in that part of the portfolio.

its a tribute to the Naim firmware architecture that this can be done. However more fundamental differences such as reconstruction filter approach and filter sizing is more limited by the hardware and can't be changed by firmware. Ultimately it is these areas which will differentiate performance between DACs such as the Hugo where a different reconstruction approach is adopted enabled by very different hardware... therefore the reconstructed analogue will be created differently. Whether you prefer it or not is purely subjective.. we all aappear to listen to sound in different ways... 

Of course reconstruction is never exact and so its a case of choosing your poison.

perhaps in the future we will see a DAC2 from Naim which will use the more accurate reconstruction methods now possible with new technology that we have started to see in some DACs released since the Naim DAC.. however absolutely nothing obsoletes the current Naim approach, but relatively cost effective betterment is now possible with new technology.

Simon

I believe this discussion starts to become a drama of the comeback of the ndac.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

• I believe the main firmware enhancement is adding DSD and optimizing the DSP code to perhaps bring the DAC closer to the NDS.. As they have very similar hardware architectures. . We know now that resequencing and modifying the DSP processor code affects the processing noise and in effect changes the tonal character and feel of the sonic performance...and those with streamer DACs are well aware of this now with firmware changes in that part of the portfolio.

It would indeed be very interesting to know which have been the original aims of the upgrade and which changes in sound quality have been actively targeted.

Slightly off topic but does anyone know why the recent update on the streamers only provided DSD64 compatibility and not both 64 and 128 as with the DAC's?

Or is it coming?

Most seem to forget that the chip is only one part of a DAC. Quality of the analogue stage, power supply, vibration control etc can all dilute any benefits from any D to A process advances. Your source is the sum of all of its parts.

musicnuttyboy posted:

Slightly off topic but does anyone know why the recent update on the streamers only provided DSD64 compatibility and not both 64 and 128 as with the DAC's?

Or is it coming?

 

2 things. The chips used in Naim streamers and DACs support a direct DSD128 feed. However that would have to bypass any of the Naim DSP code run in the 40bit SHARC processor. That bit restriction limits it to DSD64 since it must convert DSD to LPCM. That in turn is because doing DSP on raw DSD is another kettle of fish entirely. The DSD capable chips never actually see a DSD stream.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

perhaps in the future we will see a DAC2 from Naim which will use the more accurate reconstruction methods now possible with new technology that we have started to see in some DACs released since the Naim DAC.. however absolutely nothing obsoletes the current Naim approach, but relatively cost effective betterment is now possible with new technology.

I very much hope that the released firmware upgrade is just an intermediate step and that Naim is going to further develop its range of DAC devices. And I have not completely given up hoping that, some time, Naim will come out with a box with excellent S/PDIF outputs and certification for an open source OS.

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

nbpf posted:

... For the time being, I will treat myself with a few bottles of good red wine and the nDAC ...

That's quite some treatment...

Absolutely! And it is extremely important to exercise with different sorts of red wine while keeping the dilution and the quality approximately constant over a large number of listening sessions!

I suspect the main reason why the streamer DACs were limited to DSD, and the DACs support up to DSD2 is because of the common limitations of current PCM files formats to 192/24 and the fact that DSD over the network is typically carried as DoP - which means DSD2 would require a greater than 192/24 DoP container - and of course creates a unique niche in the current Naim portfolio for the DACs - though I suspect this will come to the streamer DACs at some point.

The current NDAC and NDS TI DAC chips only support PCM and NOT DSD - so all conversion is undertaken in the SHARC DSP processor.

To the point above about DAC chips only affecting a part of the audio performance - absolutely correct - but I think we have been discussing mainly the DSP - which is critical as that handles for the most part the essential and sensitive task of reconstruction filtering.

Yes the I2V generator, and quality of the analogue output stage with respect to noise and microphonics is also important - and indeed to appreciate the benefits of more accurate reconstruction these elements must add as little noise and distortion as possible.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I suspect the main reason why the streamer DACs were limited to DSD, and the DACs support up to DSD2 is because of the common limitations of current PCM files formats to 192/24 and the fact that DSD over the network is typically carried as DoP - which means DSD2 would require a greater than 192/24 DoP container - and of course creates a unique niche in the current Naim portfolio for the DACs - though I suspect this will come to the streamer DACs at some point.

The current NDAC and NDS TI DAC chips only support PCM and NOT DSD - so all conversion is undertaken in the SHARC DSP processor.

 

To the point above about DAC chips only affecting a part of the audio performance - absolutely correct - but I think we have been discussing mainly the DSP - which is critical as that handles for the most part the essential and sensitive task of reconstruction filtering.

Yes the I2V generator, and quality of the analogue output stage with respect to noise and microphonics is also important - and indeed to appreciate the benefits of more accurate reconstruction these elements must add as little noise and distortion as possible.

Simon

 

I think you will find the spec sheet for these from TI confirms they support DSD128 native input for the chips used in the NDX, 272, and V1.

...they may well do, but not as I said  for the NDAC or NDS which I believe use the same TI DAC chip as the CD555 (TI PCM 1704K)..

But possibly academic as I think the SHARC processor I2S interface to the DAC chips in the Naim architecture is PCM.

joerand posted:

Disposable hero posted:

So it is with a heavy heart that Naim DAC is now permanently removed , to be dispatched for the scheme to reclaim recyclable materials, for use in manufacturing water purification equipment for the developing world. 

WTF???

Is this a cryptic way of saying we should look for your nDAC in the classifieds?

With further anguish and despair, more listening comparisons between Chord 2 Qute and Naim DAC keep reinforcing the case in favour of the Chord 2 Qute.

I do now hear the increased high fidelity quantities in the Naim DAC, some extra details coming through and bigger soundstage.  However it isn't the momentous transformation that others have experienced.  I don't agree with the notion that my system doesn't have enough resolution capacity, or that my ears are broken.  From my listening there is no spectacular leap upwards in performance to the same level or beyond that of the Chord DAC. 

There is another problem in that with the Naim DAC in place, at a fixed volume level there is what I'd describe as a 'digital haze' tainting the sound, a harshness which is bearable for 5-6 minutes but then becomes distracting and fatiguing.  

For the same music and at the same volume level, the Chord 2 Qute doesn't generate this harsh background haze and is more natural and has a cleaner/ organic output of upper, mid and lower sound qualities.  Intriguing that such 'minimalist' technology will work out better than a Naim DAC with all its large-scale analogue and power stages.  Perhaps there is something in the idea of less is more.  I'd still say that the Chord DAC chip is better than the Texas Instruments jobby and will have some significant influence.  I no longer feel the need to swap and experiment with different DACs.  There are other well rated DACs from AURALiC as other Naim people are now talking about. But for me there is no more interest in tinkering, just to leave it alone and Chord 2 Qute will remain in place. 

The idea for dispatching the Naim DAC for a special recycling scheme, to be made in to water filtration equipment is some redress for what has become a pursuit of excess and indulgence.  I'm starting to question this whole  audiophile and hi-fi pursuit, us as the consumers and gatherers of numerous 'boxes' by a sole individual, typically for use by one person only.  The concept consuming more natural resources for adding another power supply, for something that already has a power supply.  Separate pre- and power amp units, when an integrated does a similar job. Plus more cables, more consumables more electricity...yet another plug in the wall [someone can make a song out of that].   For sure it is being done for the love of music, however there is some need for balance between free-choice, and responsibility for the state of the planet.  If you're from the 'separates generation'  (maybe over 40 year old) then perhaps none of this will chime with you and won't really matter, as that is the way it is.

We're already murdering the planet enough, so rather than this Naim DAC getting in to the eager sweaty hands of another audiophile, it would be better if it can serve a greater humanitarian purpose for water pumping and sanitation equipment in the developing world.  I hope that its humanitarian mission will provide some compensation for our consumerist hobbies. You can look up organisations which do support tackling water scarcity as we aren't allowed post up links.  There is work to develop better solar powered facilities.  I've never been to these places but others have described that you may start to re-evaluate the way we live and take for granted the stuff we devour.

Instead of Naim looking to the past (separates concept)  I'd rather that they look forward to more detailed research and development in compact/ united systems - UnitiQute 3 perhaps?  The Uniti range was unsuitable for me as it has a very harsh sound which was causing ear pains during demo listening.  The Nait XS amp is more even and neutral.   So a UnitiQute 3  with much better DAC and amplification stage output would be preferable and a smarter step in to the future.

Disposable hero posted:

joerand posted:

Disposable hero posted:

So it is with a heavy heart that Naim DAC is now permanently removed , to be dispatched for the scheme to reclaim recyclable materials, for use in manufacturing water purification equipment for the developing world. 

WTF???

Is this a cryptic way of saying we should look for your nDAC in the classifieds?

With further anguish and despair, more listening comparisons between Chord 2 Qute and Naim DAC keep reinforcing the case in favour of the Chord 2 Qute.

I do now hear the increased high fidelity quantities in the Naim DAC, some extra details coming through and bigger soundstage.  However it isn't the momentous transformation that others have experienced.  I don't agree with the notion that my system doesn't have enough resolution capacity, or that my ears are broken.  From my listening there is no spectacular leap upwards in performance to the same level or beyond that of the Chord DAC. 

There is another problem in that with the Naim DAC in place, at a fixed volume level there is what I'd describe as a 'digital haze' tainting the sound, a harshness which is bearable for 5-6 minutes but then becomes distracting and fatiguing.  

For the same music and at the same volume level, the Chord 2 Qute doesn't generate this harsh background haze and is more natural and has a cleaner/ organic output of upper, mid and lower sound qualities.  Intriguing that such 'minimalist' technology will work out better than a Naim DAC with all its large-scale analogue and power stages.  Perhaps there is something in the idea of less is more.  I'd still say that the Chord DAC chip is better than the Texas Instruments jobby and will have some significant influence.  I no longer feel the need to swap and experiment with different DACs.  There are other well rated DACs from AURALiC as other Naim people are now talking about. But for me there is no more interest in tinkering, just to leave it alone and Chord 2 Qute will remain in place. 

The idea for dispatching the Naim DAC for a special recycling scheme, to be made in to water filtration equipment is some redress for what has become a pursuit of excess and indulgence.  I'm starting to question this whole  audiophile and hi-fi pursuit, us as the consumers and gatherers of numerous 'boxes' by a sole individual, typically for use by one person only.  The concept consuming more natural resources for adding another power supply, for something that already has a power supply.  Separate pre- and power amp units, when an integrated does a similar job. Plus more cables, more consumables more electricity...yet another plug in the wall [someone can make a song out of that].   For sure it is being done for the love of music, however there is some need for balance between free-choice, and responsibility for the state of the planet.  If you're from the 'separates generation'  (maybe over 40 year old) then perhaps none of this will chime with you and won't really matter, as that is the way it is.

We're already murdering the planet enough, so rather than this Naim DAC getting in to the eager sweaty hands of another audiophile, it would be better if it can serve a greater humanitarian purpose for water pumping and sanitation equipment in the developing world.  I hope that its humanitarian mission will provide some compensation for our consumerist hobbies. You can look up organisations which do support tackling water scarcity as we aren't allowed post up links.  There is work to develop better solar powered facilities.  I've never been to these places but others have described that you may start to re-evaluate the way we live and take for granted the stuff we devour.

Instead of Naim looking to the past (separates concept)  I'd rather that they look forward to more detailed research and development in compact/ united systems - UnitiQute 3 perhaps?  The Uniti range was unsuitable for me as it has a very harsh sound which was causing ear pains during demo listening.  The Nait XS amp is more even and neutral.   So a UnitiQute 3  with much better DAC and amplification stage output would be preferable and a smarter step in to the future.

Thanks for the write up DH, interesting read. 

Would love to hear 2Qute against Naim DAC but we still don't have importer in Finland. I can't find the digital haze or harshness you write about in my setup. There's definitely nothing fatiguing in the sound. 

It's easy for me to believe that Chord and many other manufacturers are able to make DACs which outperform Naim DAC on the hifi aspects of sound like soundstage or details. But it's difficult for me to believe that they'd outperform Naim in musicality aspects like PRaT. The latter aspects are what matter to me in this hobby.

I had to leave for a business trip day after updating the DAC but it might just make good for my ears. Nice to find out how the sound is after I get back home tomorrow.

I must really applaud Naim for giving dsd capability to existing streamers and dacs instead of refreshing the whole range of digital products with new dac chips.

I'm sure a meeting was held and a concensus was reached to support existing customers having existing hardware. I'm pretty sure it took a lot of work to reprogram existing sharc processors to process dsd.

So thank you Naim, you earned not one but three loyalty points from me this round.