Firmware update 4.11.8 for Naim DAC - so what about sound quality?

Can this update be done via USB then? My iMac is upstairs and a bit of s faff to bring downstairs?

Gary

fathings cat posted:

Can this update be done via USB then? My iMac is upstairs and a bit of s faff to bring downstairs?

 

Gary

Yes.

G

Fab, thank you

Gary

Nice upgrade !

Much better soundstage, deeper bass and more controlled.

Well done Naim once more !!

Hello, all naimnese, 

I have tried many times to upgrade the new firmware of Ndac but l can't get it done.Would anybody can show me the detail how to upgrade ? !

Step 1, download the new Zip files from Naim site and unzip that.

Step 2, insert the memory stick into the front panel and switch on the ndac again while holding the dock button.

Finally , l got failed to make it upgrade after the upper procedure.

Thanks

Valentino, the nDAC can sometimes be a bit picky about the USB sticks you use.  Try to pick one that is low capacity and that you know works in the DAC.  Ensure it is FAT32 formatted.  

I spoke to Steve Hopkins at Naim as I was also struggling with the update - he had a couple of other tips

1. Use the rear USB port it is somehow more 'direct'

2. When you put the files on the USB stick make sure that they aren't in the folder than they unzip to i.e. just have the 5 files

Am I the only one who did not like the new firmware sound? I just went back today to the previous flac update. I guess is a music taste issue as well (listening Nirvana now). Everything was more hi-fi with the new upgrade, more airy and expansive, less focused. Well, I didn't like it. Maybe the rest of the system counts - Chord Indigo - Naim Dac - Nait 2 - Naca 5 - SBLs.

cristianr posted:

Am I the only one who did not like the new firmware sound? I just went back today to the previous flac update. I guess is a music taste issue as well (listening Nirvana now). Everything was more hi-fi with the new upgrade, more airy and expansive, less focused. Well, I didn't like it. Maybe the rest of the system counts - Chord Indigo - Naim Dac - Nait 2 - Naca 5 - SBLs.

I certainly think you are in a small minority cristianr.

G

I think same as Cristianr for my V1. I dont have the previous firmware. I found this one good for classic and jazz music, but for rock and heavy was better the previous. New one sound more hi fi, and now I feel Nap 100 is underpowered.

BobbyBlitz posted:

I think same as Cristianr for my V1. I dont have the previous firmware. I found this one good for classic and jazz music, but for rock and heavy was better the previous. New one sound more hi fi, and now I feel Nap 100 is underpowered.

It's funny how differently people can hear things. After the update, I feel like SN2 has enough power, before update I felt that I needed more powerful poweramp. More details, air and separation might be interpreted as more speed and power in the sound. When amplifier isn't powerful enough for the speakers, sound might get muffled and it feels like the speaker can't keep up with the music. I slightly felt this way before the nDAC update but not anymore. 

Maybe your system is on the verge of sounding too analytical or clinical? Maybe the update pushed it over the border and now it annoys you with certain music styles. It might be from something little like wrong kind of cabling. 

Hi all!

Did the upgrade as well. Think it is fabulous! I recently changed my amp from 202-200 to Supernait 1. I also have a hicap dr on it plus a powerline. With Ndac (upgraded), XPs-hiline Supernait-hicapdr-powerline-Naca5-Sbl the sytem sounds very detailed, powerfull, but at the same time, for lack of a better Word, Liquid. Or maybe valve-like and fast at the same time. Never hars. I have never been happier! It sounds so right, right now, just love to play records after record. But... my lp12, pre-cirkus, akito,adikt and Heed psu, New Linn tonarm-cable sounds different and on maybe half the records better. But the ndac is darker, almost more analogue, and certqainly more powerfull in the bass-Department.

Merry Christmas to all and to Naim for doing this upgrade! I am so happy I did not jump on the Hugo-hype!

Ps. the powerline on the hicap-dr was really something. Tried it many Places, but the hicap gave the most analogue, yet detailed sound...

cristianr posted:

Am I the only one who did not like the new firmware sound? I just went back today to the previous flac update. I guess is a music taste issue as well (listening Nirvana now). Everything was more hi-fi with the new upgrade, more airy and expansive, less focused. Well, I didn't like it. Maybe the rest of the system counts - Chord Indigo - Naim Dac - Nait 2 - Naca 5 - SBLs.

You are not the only one, to me, the PRAT appears to be diluted on the songs I tend to listen to, mostly rock, dance and heavy metal

I don't understand why, as nothing else has changed other than the software.

Efraim roots posted:

I just made the update and forgive me for being a little idealistic but I feel the sound improvement to be more about hifi-parameters, I hear better separation, bigger soundstage, some increased calm and nuance, but it doesn't really contribute to the pace, rhythm and timing, rather the contrary. Not a huge deal I guess but I definitely consider going back for another listening test. Is it possible to go back?

Similar to the more recent response directly above about when things become 'more hi-fi' & 'less musical' it does sometimes have a negative impact on listening to rock and heavy (or electronic/dance).

But in general its a mixed bag since for some old-school shouty British punk/ mod/ teddy boy rock it was usually worth going DAC-less and sending the source input directly to the Naim DAC. There is a certain rightness in the sound tone and rhythmic drive by just using lower fidelity sources to playback directly to amp and speakers.  This can also be the case with grunge since Nirvana is mentioned above, post-grunge and hardcore punk where mainly aggressive speed and attack is imperative. 

However the DAC really becomes useful when hearing more modern albums where the production and recording standards are quite advanced. Some metalcore/ grindercore and cybermetal which is both brutal/heavy and intricate can sound 'right' through a DAC.  For dance as mentioned above, rave/trance/ clubland etc.. if you do have an option to use a bouncy sounding party-mode source to go straight to the amplifier it will occasionally be better anyway, than having a high fidelity DAC being in the middle of the system.

Perhaps you won't find a perfect solution for all kinds of situations? Its always worth having a 'retrograde source' unit that is lower fidelity, but very big on shouty-bombastic straight line velocity.  This is the great paradox in the pursuit of audio perfection: sometimes imperfection is better.

Efraim roots posted:

I just made the update and forgive me for being a little idealistic but I feel the sound improvement to be more about hifi-parameters, I hear better separation, bigger soundstage, some increased calm and nuance, but it doesn't really contribute to the pace, rhythm and timing, rather the contrary. Not a huge deal I guess but I definitely consider going back for another listening test. Is it possible to go back?

Similar to the more recent response directly above about when things become 'more hi-fi' & 'less musical' it does sometimes have a negative impact on listening to rock and heavy (or electronic/dance).

But in general its a mixed bag since for some old-school shouty British punk/ mod/ teddy boy rock it was usually worth going DAC-less and sending the source input directly to the Naim DAC. There is a certain rightness in the sound tone and rhythmic drive by just using lower fidelity sources to playback directly to amp and speakers.  This can also be the case with grunge since Nirvana is mentioned above, post-grunge and hardcore punk where mainly agressive speed and attack is imperative. 

However the DAC really becomes useful when hearing more modern albums where the production and recording standards are quite advanced. Some metalcore/ grindercore and cybermetal which is both brutal/heavy and intricate can sound 'right' through a DAC.  For dance as mentioned above, rave/trance/ clubland etc.. if you do have an option to use a bouncy sounding party-mode source to go straight to the amplifier it will occasionally be better anyway, than having a high fidelity DAC being in the middle of the system.

Perhaps you won't find a perfect solution for all kinds of situations? Its always worth having a 'retrograde source' unit that is lower fidelity, but very big on shouty-bombastic straight line velocity.  This is the great paradox in the pursuit of audio perfection: sometimes imperfection is better.

Despite being in the DAC-V1 camp and of the opposite view, i.e I love the new sound post the update, I do still understand that feeling of something being lost, when music is delivered in a manner that seems to be too refined.  Whether the nDAC and V1 are now closer together, or further apart in their performance level I don't know, but the new V1 feeding an SN2 seems to be the perfect match to me, balancing drive and excitement, with wonderful levels of insight and clarity, to standard I would never have believed possible without a change of hardware.  

However, a couple of people have reported similar feelings about the DAC-V1 update, and have chosen to return to the previous firmware.  I believe it is possible to do the same with the nDac, so the good news is you can chose whichever version you prefer.  

I am curious though, will all those people still feel the same once they have put it back?  Hmm, we shall see.

It is true that certain types of music like punk may benefit from a lesser source (like a cassette player that add a little distorsion, not the top ones that are realy good). But, I went back and forth several times with both firmwares with all kinds of music genres and I still have the same conclusion. The new firmware adds hi-fi caracteristics but the music looses soul a little bit and I do not feel the need to sing along or turn up the volume (most important thing for me, felling engaged). I wonder if the same engineers are working on the dac now as before Focal Naim marriage because they seem to follow a different sound philosophy (world is not flat anymore?).

cristianr posted:

It is true that certain types of music like punk may benefit from a lesser source (like a cassette player that add a little distorsion, not the top ones that are realy good). But, I went back and forth several times with both firmwares with all kinds of music genres and I still have the same conclusion. The new firmware adds hi-fi caracteristics but the music looses soul a little bit and I do not feel the need to sing along or turn up the volume (most important thing for me, felling engaged). I wonder if the same engineers are working on the dac now as before Focal Naim marriage because they seem to follow a different sound philosophy (world is not flat anymore?).

I am not sure that I understand how music replay -- no matter of which kind -- can benefit from a lesser source. I thought that the whole point of music replay is to get something that is as similar as possible to the original, no matter what the original is and how good or how bad it is. Are you saying that certain types of music may benefit from getting modified?

analogmusic posted:

cristianr posted:

Am I the only one who did not like the new firmware sound? I just went back today to the previous flac update. I guess is a music taste issue as well (listening Nirvana now). Everything was more hi-fi with the new upgrade, more airy and expansive, less focused. Well, I didn't like it. Maybe the rest of the system counts - Chord Indigo - Naim Dac - Nait 2 - Naca 5 - SBLs.

You are not the only one, to me, the PRAT appears to be diluted on the songs I tend to listen to, mostly rock, dance and heavy metal

I don't understand why, as nothing else has changed other than the software.

But, I went back and forth several times with both firmwares with all kinds of music genres and I still have the same conclusion. The new firmware adds hi-fi caracteristics but the music looses soul a little bit and I do not feel the need to sing along or turn up the volume (most important thing for me, felling engaged).

 You are not alone!

I felt exactly the same - with the new firmware, my nDAC sounded boring!

For me the music is more (all) about emotions,  less about hi-fi parameters like timbre, separation, air, 3D sound staging, etc, etc...
New firmware brought the audiophile hi-fi goodies,
..but the great deal of drama, tension, contrast, dynamics, fine emotional nuances, etc, went MIA.
The urge to play air guitar, goose bumps feeling, the roller coaster ride feeling, were gone with the new nDAC firmware.
I was so happy that the old firmware was still available for download!

It's clear that opinions differ greatly concerning the recent Dac upgrade. In my opinion the upgrade is a no-brainer! Better soundstage with pinpoint imaging. Especially the high-low information is far better. There is more fine-detail retrieval and both highs and lows are better defined. According to me, this is a new and more audiophile Dac that draws you deeper into the performance.

Kuja posted:

analogmusic posted:

cristianr posted:

Am I the only one who did not like the new firmware sound? I just went back today to the previous flac update. I guess is a music taste issue as well (listening Nirvana now). Everything was more hi-fi with the new upgrade, more airy and expansive, less focused. Well, I didn't like it. Maybe the rest of the system counts - Chord Indigo - Naim Dac - Nait 2 - Naca 5 - SBLs.

You are not the only one, to me, the PRAT appears to be diluted on the songs I tend to listen to, mostly rock, dance and heavy metal

I don't understand why, as nothing else has changed other than the software.

 

But, I went back and forth several times with both firmwares with all kinds of music genres and I still have the same conclusion. The new firmware adds hi-fi caracteristics but the music looses soul a little bit and I do not feel the need to sing along or turn up the volume (most important thing for me, felling engaged).

 

 You are not alone!

I felt exactly the same - with the new firmware, my nDAC sounded boring!

For me the music is more (all) about emotions,  less about hi-fi parameters like timbre, separation, air, 3D sound staging, etc, etc...
New firmware brought the audiophile hi-fi goodies,
..but the great deal of drama, tension, contrast, dynamics, fine emotional nuances, etc, went MIA.
The urge to play air guitar, goose bumps feeling, the roller coaster ride feeling, were gone with the new nDAC firmware.
I was so happy that the old firmware was still available for download!

I just don't get this. If the update would've taken away the existing Naim DAC qualities like excellent PRaT and musicality, then maybe. But when all this is intact and you get better separation, high and low end extension, better details etc. then how on earth is it possible that someone feels like you lost dynamics, fine emotional nuances, contrast etc. when actually all of those got clearly better with the update. I'm confused...

I do understand the point cristianr made earlier about some sort of music benefit for crappier source. When you have a bad quality recording and extremely revealing source, things might sound extremely harsh or unpleasant. I've experienced this. Also when you have overly analytical system the sound might get fatiguing and annoying. 

If you read carefully some posts from other members in this thread,
you will notice that I'm not the only one ho has noticed the diminished musicality and PRaT.

Even the bass is somewhat slower and has less kick and slam with the new firmware.

I guess that the rest of the equipment in our systems, together with our music taste
may influence the way we are perceiving this upgrade.

My speakers are big vintage four ways with dual 10inch woofers (Acoustic Research AR90),
completely restored and upgraded with Mundorf poly caps, UPOCC wire, WBT Nextgen terminals, etc.
They go deep (-3dB @32Hz) and they are not vented (the acoustic suspension/closed box principle).
This makes them fast, with detailed and articulated low bass, capable of great dynamics, contrast and "drama".

The shortcomings (for my taste) of the new firmware were obvious from the first few minutes of listening.

I'm actually VERY envious of all of you guys who like the new firmware so much!
After reading all your positive experiences, I had high hopes!
I'm getting a new and better DAC from Naim Santa, since I've been a good boy all year!

It didn't happen, but I was already very happy (and still am) with the original for the last five years anyway.

Patu posted:

I do understand the point cristianr made earlier about some sort of music benefit for crappier source. When you have a bad quality recording and extremely revealing source, things might sound extremely harsh or unpleasant. I've experienced this. Also when you have overly analytical system the sound might get fatiguing and annoying. 

I can understand that bad recordings can benefit from a less revealing source. But this is a little bit like saying that bad recordings can benefit from turning down the volume, it seems to me.

I was under the impression that cristianr was arguing that "certain types of music ... may benefit from a lesser source", not necessarily bad recordings.

Of course, it is possible that certain types of music tend to be recorded poorly and therefore can benefit from a less revealing source.

This quote taken from cristianr's post, sums it all up (at least for me):

cristianr posted:

... But, I went back and forth several times with both firmwares with all kinds of music genres and I still have the same conclusion. The new firmware adds hi-fi caracteristics but the music looses soul a little bit and I do not feel the need to sing along or turn up the volume (most important thing for me, felling engaged).

Kuja posted:

If you read carefully some posts from other members in this thread,
you will notice that I'm not the only one ho has noticed the diminished musicality and PRaT.

Even the bass is somewhat slower and has less kick and slam with the new firmware.

I guess that the rest of the equipment in our systems, together with our music taste
may influence the way we are perceiving this upgrade.

My speakers are big vintage four ways with dual 10inch woofers (Acoustic Research AR90),
completely restored and upgraded with Mundorf poly caps, UPOCC wire, WBT Nextgen terminals, etc.
They go deep (-3dB @32Hz) and they are not vented (the acoustic suspension/closed box principle).
This makes them fast, with detailed and articulated low bass, capable of great dynamics, contrast and "drama".

The shortcomings (for my taste) of the new firmware were obvious from the first few minutes of listening.

I'm actually VERY envious of all of you guys who like the new firmware so much!
After reading all your positive experiences, I had high hopes!
I'm getting a new and better DAC from Naim Santa, since I've been a good boy all year!

It didn't happen, but I was already very happy (and still am) with the original for the last five years anyway.

I've noticed but people thinking it was a bad update are clearly in minority. 

About the bass. Could it be that now when the bass hits deeper with more nuances, information and authority, some setups can't keep up with the new information coming through and this translates to slower feeling of bass? I think that the bass got clearly better since it now hits little deeper. Can't notice any difference in speed. Sound in whole is now easier to follow. 

I don't know about your taste in music but our speakers are lot alike actually. I use 3-way ATC SCM40 v2 which is also closed design. It's super fast, detailed and capable speaker. The bass hits very deep.