Firmware update 4.11.8 for Naim DAC - so what about sound quality?

I agree, I may be wrong regarding the lesser source for certain types of music, it is a matter of personal preference (and I am biased and very nostalgic regarding cassettes). 

My speakers are also closed design and certanly fast (sbl's). Anyway, I feel like the Grinch ). Merry Christmas to you all, I hope Santa won't forget you today .

Not sure if I am being a total Luddite but I have down loaded the files to a Naim USB but don't appear to be able to do the update. In simple terms once I have the files on the USB what do I need to do?

thanks 

Gary

Don't download the files to a USB stick.  Download them to your computer then unzip.  Take the individual files and load them onto a USB stick that you know works well with the DAC and is formatted to FAT32.  Make sure the individual files are loaded to the Stick's root directory (i.e. no folders)

I have down loaded them to my I Mac then moved them to USB stick (stick should be good as it's a Naim one). How do I unzip them? 

If they're just the individual files then they're already unzipped.  Just make sure there's no folder.

Don't rely on the Naim branding on some of the USB sticks.  I have a couple of silver metal USB sticks (4 or 8GB IIRC) and the Naim DAC doesn't like them.  However, if it's the back and green 1GB stick then this tends to work just fine, and indeed, it's what I used to update my own DAC.

Thanks Richard, looks like i have the right files! is it now just a simples case of inserting USB? do i need to switch off doc and the insert usb or just insert usb?

sorry for being a numpty but the instructions on the naim website are written in Hebrew......

Gary

Gary, read through the instructions pdf carefully.  It tells you all you need to know about the installation.  To update:

I too thought PRAT took a step back, but I think it was an artifice to begin with, a perception, and maybe very system\music dependent also. I felt like the PRAT that seems diminished had before come from tones stacking on top of one another in a denser center image, so to speak, so that two or three tones very near each other in frequency would sound as one strong pulse. Now, those two or three tones sound separate, so the cumulative perception is of scattered sounds with less force. Years ago I experienced this same phenomenon when comparing the DACmagic to the nDAC. Initially I felt the DACMagic was more dynamic and had more PRAT. Then I listened over time to the variety of music I listen to and realized that it was simply a case of 16 colors vs 24 million colors and that a wealth of shade and nuance was the difference, not loudness.

After listening to it like this for two weeks, I'm finding it to be a vast improvement that works well over the crazy variety of music I listen to. Where before there was a touch more PRAT, but a very crowded center image where harmonics and detail could get lost, glossed over or simply drowned out in the stack, there is now a lot more separation and differentiation throughout the frequency range, allowing single and massed voices, cymbals, strings and horns to all sound more distinct, more naturally detailed and rich with harmonic overtone. I don't feel that speed is lacking, or bass. I don't feel that dynamics have suffered, because guitar string bends and slurs that I know well are still executed with the same variations in force. I use two subwoofers, so shifts in bass output are immediately evident. I did find that I had to turn the subs down a touch, so there appears to be more low level content coming out. This is more obvious in R&B type music where there is already a lot of superfluous bass thrown in by the engineers. Bass tones, however, seem to benefit from the same perceived gain in clarity. There is a sense of more differentiation and clarity in some double bass works and I've noticed it playing some of my Marcus Miller albums.

One thing I LOVE: I listen to a lot of poor recordings and much of my library is CD quality or lower, but these are some of my favorite tracks and I simply won't tolerate any gear in my house of any make or price that can't make music out of lesser recordings. I absolutely WILL NOT be the audiophile reduced to playing Keith Don't Go over and over again. With the new software, these tracks sound great! Dense, busy, poor recordings of metal and punk that I love to listen to but that can get fatiguing because it tends to turn into a mass of noisy hash, are now much less fatiguing because of the spatial changes and I'm picking up much more musical information as a result. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE THIS!

I think this is a wonderful offering from Naim and I'm grateful to them for it. For me, it was like getting a DAC upgrade for Christmas. I can see it not be everyone's cuppa though because like any source change, how it may play out in your system and room will vary, but trying it and switching back is easy.

Cheer Richard, popped the USB in and nothing happens. Looks like I'll have to go and see my dealer.

Gary

Have you tried the Usb stick out in the Naim DAC with some music?  Do this first?  The Naim DAC is not a computer and can be picky about USB sticks and formatting.  Onec you find a stick that the DAC likes then try again.

I have posted a couple of times in the strong positive group.  Now i find I am getting a different perspective thanks to my turntable. While i still think that the new firmware balances out what were becoming slightly annoying colourations, that being a slightly slow dark and closed in balance in my Conrad Johnson tube powered system, now i am finding that my turntable is sounding better.  I still think the DAC sounds better, if that is possible.

Its a hard comparison to make as LPs and CD rips are not identical sonic material and i have tried to minimise double ups in albums. Direct comparisons are limited.

Before the upgrade the turntable rarely provided the preferred sound, i thought they were ( give or take a few albums) on par.  Now i like my turntable much more than i did before. I need to do more listening to see if this impression continues.  Its not that the DAC sounds wrong or bad, i can still hear the improvements, but its almost like my point of reference has somehow shifted, allowing greater appreciation of some aspect of the vinyl playback. Maybe some hard to put your finger on factor has reduced on the DAC. The DAC does sound less immediate and forward, but that was a characteristic that was bothing me anyway, its why i was considering trying the Chord DACs again.

Has anyone else noticed this about their vinyl ? (in my case i use a Rega P5 with power box, dynavector 17d3 cart and zesto andros phono... and mere Red Dawn 2 interconnects vs  reference level Valhalla on the nDAC- i know that in the past i could make the turntable sound better using the reference interconnects off the DAC)

Hi Fathings Cat, it may be best to just bring it to the dealer if you have one close. If your dealer is far away, I would try what Richard suggested above. Drop a song file on that USB (I would use a .wav or .mp3 to ensure compatibility) and see if it plays. If it does, then it likes the USB and either you don't have the correct 5 loader files on the root of the USB drive or the DAC is already upgraded.

Have you verified what firmware version is currently on the DAC? To do that, bring a notepad to the DAC. Shut off the DAC, press and hold the DOCK button while turning the DAC on. It will flash a sequence of lit or unlit buttons every second for 5 seconds and then go into boot mode and come up as usual.

For example, if you are already on version 4.11.8, holding the Dock button and starting the DAC will show this sequence:

• Second 1 - button number 2 is lit
• Second 2 - all buttons go dark
• Second 3 - buttons 1, 3, 4 are lit
• Second 4 -  all buttons go dark
• Second 5 - button 1 is lit

If that's what you see, then you are already upgraded and the behavior you are getting is normal. If you have a different sequence, note it in case you have problems later. You'll want to know what version you were on before changing anything.

To check if you have the correct files on the USB, put the USB in your MAC and in the Finder click on it. You should see the following five files:

BF.ldr

BFIN.ldr

Blackfin.ldr

BOOTL.ldr

SHARC.ldr

If those aren't there, go back to your Naim-DAC-Firmware-Update-Version-4.11.8.zip file, double-click it. On a mac it should create a folder of the same name in the same location as the .zip file. Open that folder and drag and drop the five .ldr files onto the USB drive. Once all five are there, put the USB back in the DAC and see if you get the behavior Richard described above (all buttons lighting up and turning off one by one from 5 to 1).

Clemenza posted:

I too thought PRAT took a step back, but I think it was an artifice to begin with, a perception, and maybe very system\music dependent also. I felt like the PRAT that seems diminished had before come from tones stacking on top of one another in a denser center image, so to speak, so that two or three tones very near each other in frequency would sound as one strong pulse. Now, those two or three tones sound separate, so the cumulative perception is of scattered sounds with less force. Years ago I experienced this same phenomenon when comparing the DACmagic to the nDAC. Initially I felt the DACMagic was more dynamic and had more PRAT. Then I listened over time to the variety of music I listen to and realized that it was simply a case of 16 colors vs 24 million colors and that a wealth of shade and nuance was the difference, not loudness.

After listening to it like this for two weeks, I'm finding it to be a vast improvement that works well over the crazy variety of music I listen to. Where before there was a touch more PRAT, but a very crowded center image where harmonics and detail could get lost, glossed over or simply drowned out in the stack, there is now a lot more separation and differentiation throughout the frequency range, allowing single and massed voices, cymbals, strings and horns to all sound more distinct, more naturally detailed and rich with harmonic overtone. I don't feel that speed is lacking, or bass. I don't feel that dynamics have suffered, because guitar string bends and slurs that I know well are still executed with the same variations in force. I use two subwoofers, so shifts in bass output are immediately evident. I did find that I had to turn the subs down a touch, so there appears to be more low level content coming out. This is more obvious in R&B type music where there is already a lot of superfluous bass thrown in by the engineers. Bass tones, however, seem to benefit from the same perceived gain in clarity. There is a sense of more differentiation and clarity in some double bass works and I've noticed it playing some of my Marcus Miller albums.

One thing I LOVE: I listen to a lot of poor recordings and much of my library is CD quality or lower, but these are some of my favorite tracks and I simply won't tolerate any gear in my house of any make or price that can't make music out of lesser recordings. I absolutely WILL NOT be the audiophile reduced to playing Keith Don't Go over and over again. With the new software, these tracks sound great! Dense, busy, poor recordings of metal and punk that I love to listen to but that can get fatiguing because it tends to turn into a mass of noisy hash, are now much less fatiguing because of the spatial changes and I'm picking up much more musical information as a result. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE THIS!

I think this is a wonderful offering from Naim and I'm grateful to them for it. For me, it was like getting a DAC upgrade for Christmas. I can see it not be everyone's cuppa though because like any source change, how it may play out in your system and room will vary, but trying it and switching back is easy.

Wonderful write up. After the negative posts I have tried to listen more critically; is there any loss of prat and so on. I think the opposite, but find the same as you, Clemenza. More separation and more power in bass. At the same time It sounds better with any records. More ear-friendly yet still to me increased prat, dynamics and musicality!

Regards

Fred

what does PRAT stand for?

thijazi posted:

what does PRAT stand for?

Pace Rhythm and Timing or in some cases what my wife refers to me as

Good sound that"s al you have to know.

Thanks to all those that provided help, I took my NDac to my dealer and he advised it already had the 4.11.8 update, seems like I updated it without realising.....

And for the record yes I do feel slightly silly! 

Gary

fathings cat posted:

Thanks to all those that provided help, I took my NDac to my dealer and he advised it already had the 4.11.8 update, seems like I updated it without realising.....

And for the record yes I do feel slightly silly! 

Gary

Glad it's sorted and well done for being honest about the outcome. It must have been tempting to keep quiet. 

Good news Gary! So, what do you think? Like, no like?

Surprisingly in the blink of an eye, the new FW has already updated the moment a flash drive is inserted into the nDAC. The whole process is happening so fast that we may not realize it until we double check on the lit sequence.  I kept trying a few flash drives not knowing the new FW was already updated.... 

New years day morning spent with the nDAC XPS 2 DR.  Despite my turntable comments above I have to say that the Essential Dave Brubeck CD rip is easily sounding the best i have ever heard it.  Easily.

The only system thing i have been thinking is about my room treatments ( i have a shallow wide room with dead end/live end approach with lots of adsorption on the front wall- i wonder if it might sound even sweeter with a more focused implementation in the treatment department- absorption is so 2010 don't you think). I'm being really really fussy of course.

Fred11 posted:

Clemenza posted:

I too thought PRAT took a step back, but I think it was an artifice to begin with, a perception, and maybe very system\music dependent also. I felt like the PRAT that seems diminished had before come from tones stacking on top of one another in a denser center image, so to speak, so that two or three tones very near each other in frequency would sound as one strong pulse. Now, those two or three tones sound separate, so the cumulative perception is of scattered sounds with less force. Years ago I experienced this same phenomenon when comparing the DACmagic to the nDAC. Initially I felt the DACMagic was more dynamic and had more PRAT. Then I listened over time to the variety of music I listen to and realized that it was simply a case of 16 colors vs 24 million colors and that a wealth of shade and nuance was the difference, not loudness.

After listening to it like this for two weeks, I'm finding it to be a vast improvement that works well over the crazy variety of music I listen to. Where before there was a touch more PRAT, but a very crowded center image where harmonics and detail could get lost, glossed over or simply drowned out in the stack, there is now a lot more separation and differentiation throughout the frequency range, allowing single and massed voices, cymbals, strings and horns to all sound more distinct, more naturally detailed and rich with harmonic overtone. I don't feel that speed is lacking, or bass. I don't feel that dynamics have suffered, because guitar string bends and slurs that I know well are still executed with the same variations in force. I use two subwoofers, so shifts in bass output are immediately evident. I did find that I had to turn the subs down a touch, so there appears to be more low level content coming out. This is more obvious in R&B type music where there is already a lot of superfluous bass thrown in by the engineers. Bass tones, however, seem to benefit from the same perceived gain in clarity. There is a sense of more differentiation and clarity in some double bass works and I've noticed it playing some of my Marcus Miller albums.

One thing I LOVE: I listen to a lot of poor recordings and much of my library is CD quality or lower, but these are some of my favorite tracks and I simply won't tolerate any gear in my house of any make or price that can't make music out of lesser recordings. I absolutely WILL NOT be the audiophile reduced to playing Keith Don't Go over and over again. With the new software, these tracks sound great! Dense, busy, poor recordings of metal and punk that I love to listen to but that can get fatiguing because it tends to turn into a mass of noisy hash, are now much less fatiguing because of the spatial changes and I'm picking up much more musical information as a result. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE THIS!

I think this is a wonderful offering from Naim and I'm grateful to them for it. For me, it was like getting a DAC upgrade for Christmas. I can see it not be everyone's cuppa though because like any source change, how it may play out in your system and room will vary, but trying it and switching back is easy.

Wonderful write up. After the negative posts I have tried to listen more critically; is there any loss of prat and so on. I think the opposite, but find the same as you, Clemenza. More separation and more power in bass. At the same time It sounds better with any records. More ear-friendly yet still to me increased prat, dynamics and musicality!

Regards

Fred

Unless I have missed it somewhere I feel an interesting question still remains on how nDAC and NDS now compare with their most recent updates. I know I should probably put it to my own bench but have lacked the time so far. 

Chag -

I wonder if the effect of adding psu is equal as before the update or is it less valuable? Have anybody tried?

/ Anders

Have been using the IPad connected to the front dock socket a lot recently. Before it was pretty dire to be honest, after update I'd say it has taken several notches up in quality  - almost as good as Naim cd5i. Great for some obscure stuff on YouTube .. Might consider signing up for a music stream service with it.

I did the upgrade.  100 % agree on the "it can make lesser music better" comments. Own a heap of 80's rock of various recording quality & stuff that almost ripped my head off has very much been tamed - but not for the sake of being overly smooth or too laid back it's still just as detailed it is now just much easier to relax with,  listen to and follow.

Something you do not realise is the case I suppose  - until you do the upgrade.

Excellent upgrade NAIM !