Nap 200 burn-in

Hello MATF,

More information please. 'Unfocussed and muddy' in comparison to what?

System details? It can be useful to state this in one's forum profile.

John.

Hi John

Thanks for the reply. By unfocused I mean just that - a lack of detail and precession throughout the audible range. The comparison is an old Croft valve amp which has it draw backs but is much more open, detailed and accurate. I could just have valve shaped ears but the difference surprised me. I previously had a 250 which I don't remember being too bad. 

I'm running it with a Croft 25RS preamp, a Blacknote dac player and a modified Blacknote record player. 

200 or 200dr? How old is it exactly ?

Hi,

It's new but pre-dr. 

I suppose my question is whether they generally sound a bit ropey out of the box and improve drastically or whether burn in is relatively subtle. Also whether the Gothams could be the culprit. 

If anything, Naim amps sound too detailed and precise when brand new, but also a bit dynamically constrained. Over the course of a few weeks everything opens up. 

The Naim power amps are virtually always used with a Naim preamp, as the preamp provides the appropriate electronic conditions for the power amp to operate as designed. On the other hand, Naim preamps are sometimes used with other people's power amps. 

Goodness knows what made you want to use a Naim amp with your Croft; it sounds like a bad idea to me. As for the Gothams, what are they, speaker cables or the interconnect from the preamp?

What are gotham's ?.

People that live beside Bat Man And Robin.

I'm working backwards somewhat, trying to simplify my life. Before the Croft stuff I ran a 282 / 250 configuration. I tried a Croft 25R on a whim some years ago and put the 282 on eBay at a considerable loss after 1/2 an hour listening to it. The Croft S4 power amp was a different story in that it wasn't as good as the 250 when I first got it. I had it rebuilt/ upgrade by Glenn Croft after which it sounded pretty good. Since then I've tweaked the valve lineup to within an inch of its life. I was expecting the 200 to sound not quite as open as the S4 but with better dynamics, I was genuinely quite shocked by what I heard, hence the post. I was sort of expecting someone to say 'yep they sound rubbish for a bit'. I'll look at replacing the Gotham interconnects and see where I get to.

Hi MATF,

The problem could well be a simple pre/power amp mis-match. There's nothing intrinsically 'wrong' with either part - they just don't like each other. 

Our strange addiction is all about synergy and it sounds like it's not happening for you. 

As ever, a good dealer should be able to help. 

Good luck. 

John. 

Hi,

Let's see if we can help?

It seems that what you're trying to achieve is all a bit random.  There is one bit of guidance over everything else and that is a thorough demonstration preferably in your own home if you're looking to integrate an opponent into an existing system.

Run-in is a factor but I really think that this is just poor system matching.  Similarly I doubt this is an interconnect problem - presumably you have a Gotham RCA>DIN wire - I wasn't aware there was such a thing?

What speakers are you using?

Naim have advised me to wait at least one month for my brand new Nap to open up

Analog true but I genuinely think the OP has far greater issues than that - particularly with regard to component compatability.  My 250DR certainly improved with time but after 24 hours was singing nicely.

I agree. 'Muddy' has never been a description applicable to a 200. It's simply unhappy. 

I'd agree on the matching 100% if I hadn't heard my Croft preamp working well with a 250 (olive and latest), better than with a 282 although it was running with a TeddyDac which may have influenced things. A Croft pre with Naim power is not entirely uncommon. 

What speaker cables did you use with the 250 which worked? What speakers did you have then and what speakers do you have now?

My nap200 (albeit DR) is clear and  fast good amp!

Hi Felix

They're Kudos C10s with Chord Epic cables. 

Ok, before jumping to any conclusions, first thing I'd do here is replace the speaker cables with NACA or that Chord cable that you had before.

The NAP200 is designed to work properly together with NACA (or other similar cable ). The owners manual warns against using other types of speaker cable.

I agree with matching / checking cables etc.. The NAP200 does burn in, but after the first few hours  it has generally opened up and become less brittle. Further changes through system settling/stabilisation continue but are generally subtle.

Lack of focus etc does sound like something elsewhere.. whether speakers, preamp or cable. My new 200 sounded great almost immediately after first power up.

Simon

A few years ago I had a top spec Sondek. I had it serviced by Peter @ Cymbiosys, when he played it back to me it was one of the best systems I had ever heard, blew me away in fact. The system he played back to me was;

Sondek -> 202 (with SuperDac) -> 200 -> Chord speaker wire (same as I have now but without shielding) -> Kudos C20 speakers (floor stander version of what I have now).

So I'm pretty confident the amp,cable,speaker combo I have is not the problem.

I might add to the discussion that I only had a chance to play the new 200 for a couple hours before I had to hop on a plane.

I got to play some Cafe del Mar on vinyl which actually sounded fine, then some Stan Getz also on vinyl which sounded awful, muddy and unfocused as I said before. Some classical from a digital source sounded slightly better but lacked precision and detail.

I think what surprised me most about the sound was the bass in fact. It lacked any kind of control or punch, worse than the Croft S4 valve amp which would be its weakest area.

To me if the burn in isn't the problem I'll try tacking a better interconnect in when I'm back. As a wild guess I thing the Gotham connect I have in place is suffering from sloppy soldering, tho I wouldn't want to slur it's name just yet.

I would not bet my life on it but will say that I would be extremely surprised if the problems you are describing get resolved by a cable change.

The severity of the language used to describe the problem really sounds like an unhappy marriage between  the preamp and 200 or the 200 and the speakers.

One of these components is going to have to part ways citing irreconcilable differences. And if you love the rest of the system, it might be the 200 that goes. You already had a 282/250 once and it didn't do it for you. I really feel that the 200 needs a Naim pre to sing and that did't work out with a better Naim power amp before.

I downloaded a burn cd direct from tellurium Q's website to burn in my new tellurium black diamond interconnects. For just £17 I thought it was worth a shot. You just leave it running on repeat and it speeds up the process. 

The disc/download also has a system refresh track for existing kit.

Try a different i/c first - see how that goes.

Of course it may just be the pre-amp and power amp not getting along.  The power amp has a low input impedance.  That combined with the high output impedance of most valve pre-amps results in very poor control at LF and a fair bit of roll-off at the frequency extremes.

If you really want to combine Naim with valves then it's much better to go the other way - Naim pre-amp into a valve power amp.

matf posted:

A few years ago I had a top spec Sondek. I had it serviced by Peter @ Cymbiosys, when he played it back to me it was one of the best systems I had ever heard, blew me away in fact. The system he played back to me was;

Sondek -> 202 (with SuperDac) -> 200 -> Chord speaker wire (same as I have now but without shielding) -> Kudos C20 speakers (floor stander version of what I have now).

So I'm pretty confident the amp,cable,speaker combo I have is not the problem.

I might add to the discussion that I only had a chance to play the new 200 for a couple hours before I had to hop on a plane.

I got to play some Cafe del Mar on vinyl which actually sounded fine, then some Stan Getz also on vinyl which sounded awful, muddy and unfocused as I said before. Some classical from a digital source sounded slightly better but lacked precision and detail.

I think what surprised me most about the sound was the bass in fact. It lacked any kind of control or punch, worse than the Croft S4 valve amp which would be its weakest area.

To me if the burn in isn't the problem I'll try tacking a better interconnect in when I'm back. As a wild guess I thing the Gotham connect I have in place is suffering from sloppy soldering, tho I wouldn't want to slur it's name just yet.

But I think you've answered the question. The system Peter played you was a Naim pre/power - all the evidence suggests the Croft and the 200 will not be good friends.  

Ok, so you had that Chord speaker cable already in place. No prob with that or speakers then! 

But if your preamp is the "Croft Acoustics Micro 25 RS Pre-Amplifier" then Richard probably has the right answer: According to specs this has 2k ohms output impedance! 

Only easy answer might be that matching Croft power amp.

...or a 202.