NAC 202 or 282 as Upgrade from NaitXS2?

Massimo Bertola posted:

I'll have a listen at the SN2 again - my friend retailer has it - or I will ask it for a home demo. I still wonder what it has that is so much better than a SN to justify the move instead of pre&power, but I'll consider it seriously. BTW, my friend Roberto has had it as a replacement amp while waiting for his 282/250.2, and I believe he has a clear idea of it.

Massimo,

The SN2 has a preamp section that is the equal (to my ears) to that of the 272. I don't think I could tell them apart in a blind test. To give you an indication of its potential as a separates replacement, I used the SN2 many times in place of my 82/HiCap/250 with great satisfaction, except for occasional times when more power was needed to drive my 8" two-way speakers in the large open-plan living area that they animate. The clarity and nuance of the SN2 was evident and outclassed the 82, but I missed the power of the 250. Problem now solved with the purchase of a used 252/SuperCap to front the 250. The SN2 has returned to the modest-size basement listening room where it never ceases to draw us into the music - agnostic to genre -  while also providing great depth and power to movie soundtracks in two-channel mode.

I have no experience with the SBLs, but from readings here on the forum, I would think that the SN2 will be more than adequate for the type of listening that you have described. Time to visit Roberto methinks.

Jan

Just stick with the XS2 seems the best advice here !

TOBYJUG posted:

Just stick with the XS2 seems the best advice here !

That's certainly the plan for the short term.  And then we'll see.

I hope this means we're back on topic.  Not that I mind a diverting rathole or two, far from it, and much of it was at least tangentially related.  But the food fight that broke out, while illustrative, wasn't very informative except in that it appears HungryHalibut's real name is Nigel, which is news to me.  And useful as I will now stop picturing him as a giant peckish flounder.

Hi from America, Nige!

Tallan, What's your avatar? Thanks.      Chris

Jan,

thanks.

I won't intrude in the main topic again.

M

Upgrade from a Nait XS2, Topic.

Maybe subconsciously Forum members were trying to persuade OP in another direction.

"The NAIT XS 2 offers much of the performance of our reference qualitySUPERNAIT 2 in a simpler, slimmer package combining a 70W power amplifier with six analogue inputs. Its high performance preamplifier stage is as transparent as you would expect from a Naim Audio amplifier, and it also shares the single-ended class-A headphone output of its larger sibling.""

On a related  note, I got myself an SN2 because I had an NDX which was bought used earlier. If not for this, it would have been an ND5XS + Nait XS2. I believe the ND5XS present very good value for money if one has a relatively small listening room and wants to cap at two box.

FWIW, i've had for a while a 282 into an XS first gen, used as a power amp and psu for 282... fronted by cd5x/fc2x, with spendor speakers. i thought it as a very-very good setup.

i've compared at the time this combo 282/XS vs the SN first gen, and on my speakers, the SN didn't stood a chance, the 282/XS combo was better in all aspects, and more enjoyable, too! too bad my usual and rather fast gear changes translated that time into separating from the 282... it's one of the few changes i regret...

indeed the 282 remains one of my favourite Naim gear af all times!

other time, i used the XS forst gen as preamp into a 250.2... with cd5i cdp and also spendor speakers... again i anjoyed this combo a lot... but the 282/XS    was better than XS/250.2.

Just to add another perspective, there are dedicated followers of only the integrated range (Nait XS or Nait 5i amplifiers) for reasons of "musicality versus hi-fidelity"

Something I'd felt from listening to shop demonstrations around the NAP and NAC arrangements, it loses a bit of the musical gusto and identity and could veer somewhat in to 'analytical' process: 'more hi-fi, less music' .  This will not be valid to everyone but as usual down to personal preferences and tastes.

Even the Nait 5i seemed to have bit more passion and gusto than Nait XS, however the sound was hard and it was causing ear pains.  There are accusations that  Nait 5i has an 'engineered bounce' to give it an addictive sound in absence of and to compensate for having lower fidelity levels. I'm guessing only production engineers can answer this.  Nait XS is more balanced and natural so a best compromise for musicality and high fidelity.

There are still hardcore devotees of the Nait 5i sound for this reason of being a very musical machine, maybe also to do with the similarity to the previous Nait 'numbers'. 

As always it will be down to your personal perspectives and quite a lot to do with musical tastes.  You may not be doing so much head-banging or moshing anymore so even tastes in sound and music change over the years.

DH, about nait 5i... i've had about 5 or 6, along the line... each of them immensely enjoyed before selling...

Hi Tallan
After the tangential diversion, back on track (!)

I offer the following based solely on my own experience of both the Devore and Dynaudio speakers that you own in your two systems.  I heard them with Naim's 52/135 and 32.5/135 pre-power amplifiers here at home.

First, you are blessed with two excellent but very different speakers.  I suspect that both speakers need very good amplifiers, if for different reasons. Silverback are fairly benign as a load, yet extremely revealing.

The "baby" Dynaudio C1s, while small, are remarkably tough to control well and need an amp with tremendous drive and grip to get the best out of them.  Without this, the bass can sound loose, flouncy & slow, woofly even (!)  This is not the fault of the speaker but the absence of enough grip from the amplifier.  Our experience at home indicated that a pair of NAP135s was up to the job, just. But only just.  Translating to the current range means a NAP250DR or ideally a NAP300DR.  Sorry about that.  Drive the C1 with the right amp and they absolutely sing!  Amazing little wonders they are too.

The Silverbacks are much bigger, yet a far more benign load.  However, they are a top flight speaker so will unsurprisingly reveal any weaknesses upstream.  Again, this would ideally mean something like a 272/XPS/250DR (how fortunate!)

Hence, it seems as though you are already well set up for your big speakers, yet ironically may need the same amp again to wake up the C1s properly.  If a 250DR is too expensive for you at this point, a pair of recently serviced NAP135s would do it.  I genuinely question whether an olive or Chrome bumper NAP250 would suffice (I've owned one in the past), let alone a NAP200.

In terms of pre-amps, a 272 or 282 would be lovely though.

Do let us know how you get on.

Hope this helps, FT

Christopher_M posted:

Tallan, What's your avatar? Thanks.      Chris

I don't really know, Chris, I assume it's something created in Photoshop or similar; I found it at a free avatar web site.  It seemed dynamic, rhythmic, and interesting to me thus appropriate for a music-based forum.

Foot Tapper, I basically agree with everything you've said.  I've had the DeVore Silverbacks since they first came out, first powered by a Sugden integrated, then a Shindo Monbrisson/Montrachet combo, and now the "lowly" Nait and they sound better than ever - go figure!  

A NAP 300 for the C1s would definitely be nice, but it's a matter of money and space... maybe someday.  It's my bedroom system, after all.  Until then I have a 250DR two-thirds paid for so hope to swing it by Christmas or early in the New Year.

Which then frees up the current NAP 200 (not DR) to go out to the Nait XS / DeVore system in the living room to do the heavy lifting there.  I think it'll sound sweet; at the time I bought the 200 my dealer swore up down and sideways that it was a better more musical amp than the 250.2, so I took his word and have few if any regrets.

Maybe I'll stick with the Nait, or perhaps upgrade to a 282; it seems the gist of the thinking here is the 202 while really nice wouldn't be both a significant and sufficient upgrade to be completely worthwhile.

Thanks for your input!

Ah, Tallan, thanks.  This makes complete sense.  I do not wish to imply criticism of the NAP200 and apologise if it read that way.  Many Naim owners prefer the sonic signature of the NAP200 & NAP300 to the NAP250.2 and I can appreciate why.  Personally, I chose a pair of 135s over the 250.2 at the time.  However, there is almost universal agreement, among those forum members who have heard them, that the 250DR is a whole lot more musical than the 250.2.  I am one such. The 250DR is fabulous, at least according to these cloth ears.

Equally, the NAP200 is a much more capable power amp than that in the NAIT XS, so you might as well give it a go with the DeVore speakers.  Personally, I would try to skip the 202 (I'm not a fan, even when it's powered by a Supercap!) and go for a 282 (or another 272) if you can at some point down the line.  But this is a very personal perspective and others hear it differently.

Well, that's just about all that I can usefully add, so I do hope that you enjoy the journey.

Best regards, FT

FT, thanks for that.  It's remarkable that I haven't read anything - here or in the hifi press - negative about the 250DR, or anything less than high praise, in fact.  I'm very much looking forward to having one!

TOBYJUG posted:

Just stick with the XS2 seems the best advice here !

+1

Massimo Bertola posted:

I still wonder what it (SN2) has that is so much better than a SN to justify the move instead of pre&power, but I'll consider it seriously.

In my own experience the SN2 impressed with substantially more grunt and power. It controlled my Totem Forest surprisingly well, second best only to a 282/250.2 but yet not too far off either. Depending on the music the SN1 can struggle to tame the bass when moving past 12 o'clock on the volume dial. The SN2 also offers much better resolution when compared with a stand alone SN1. The preamp section comes close to the result delivered by a SN1 + HCDR combo, albeit not quite there. Upon hearing it for the first time in my own system, I thought it to be the clear winner. However, I sold the SN2 after a three months side by side comparison. The main reason, it sounded more sterile - for lack of a better word - in comparison. The SN1 simply has a lovely boogie factor, something the SN2 seemed to be missing - these are the words of a respected Naim dealer here in Germany and I concurred with that assessment. To my ears the SN1 sounds more organic and, yes, delivers a warmer presentation, a characteristic I like. I never compared the SN2 + HCDR, it's simply not a combination I would want to entertain. I have since sold the HCDR and am enjoying the musical portrayal of a plain vanilla SN1, albeit with a maxed out source. To my ears it all sounds very good indeed. YMMV.

tp

TP,

an interesting explanation, thanks; I like elaborations more than simple 'it's better'. The only time I compared SN1 and 2 directly (with a CD5XS and S-400s) I thought that the SN2 had more 'space', more refined timbres and the 1 was - as it has always sounded to me - a little monochromatic, a little less shaded. Yet, if that is what you call 'boogie factor', I loved that, and still like it.

I am a little surprised to read of our impression of a 'sterile' sound from the 2, I would have thought it more 'warm'. But what really surprises me is your mention of the SN's behaviour with the volume pot past 12, a level I have never reached and could never reach in a normal domestic environment. The magazine Stereophile had praised the SN, with the only caveat, they said, of an 'unnecessarily high gain'; for sure, it's almost impossible for me to go beyond 10-10,30 of the dial with music, or 11 with movies. With my complete set of Vertere cables, though, I now can turn the volume pot a little higher.

Best

M 

Foot tapper posted:

Equally, the NAP200 is a much more capable power amp than that in the NAIT XS, so you might as well give it a go with the DeVore speakers.  Personally, I would try to skip the 202 (I'm not a fan, even when it's powered by a Supercap!) and go for a 282 (or another 272) if you can at some point down the line.  But this is a very personal perspective and others hear it differently.

Best regards, FT

FT, i must say that i have tried once the supercap on my own (back then) 202, and there was a rather interesting effect, it certainly improved things... was it worth the price asked for one new, i didn't though so at the time, but i started to look on olive SC's, because the price was way lower than a black SC, and the fact that i used the 202 with a 180, at the time... rest of setup was cd5x/fc2x and spendor sp2/3r, with chord cables for signal and power.

200 is an upgrade for all integrateds power amp section, no doubt, but i have found that many users here do not really understand some hifi terms, and judge performance in a wrong way, preffering most of the times colouration and compression over dynamics and neutrality.

i understand that everyone is entitled to do as he/she pleases with personal budget, but, nonetheless, getting useful information from such persons, who really do not seem to understand hifi principles, is like asking a lumberjack to be your heart surgeon, sort of speak...

for example, the supernait in both of it's incarnations, as good may it be, is not at the level of pre+power. still many preffer it, and support this idea here on the forum. preference is one thing, correct advice is another...

the thing is, for both SN1 and 2, preamp section is considerably well below the 202, and power amp section is considerably well below 200 (especially DR). so, when debating SN vs 202/200(DR or not) there is really nothing to debate, if we would be honest! is just a matter that some preffer the colouration of the lesser gear.

not to metion using very expensive and good electronics on entry-level / old speakers... a waste of time, if you ask me...

Massimo,

No, I would not equate monochromatic with boogie factor. The latter term describes a livelier and more upbeat presentation of the music. In short, it is emotionally more engaging. This and my summary above were my findings. Believe me, I tried hard not too come to this conclusion because I wanted to keep the SN2 for its positive attributes as described by me. It would have suited my speakers perfectly. However, on pure musical terms it simply did not convince me enough to swap. Maybe it was an odd sample out of an otherwise much better bunch, I don't know. Chances are that I will purchase another SN2 at some point to demo it again. I'd love it to be better but if not, it will have to go once again. 

I know 12 o'clock is loud but sometimes I just have to crank it up, it's my therapy, it helps me to relax. 

Best

tp

TP,

I have learned to acknowledge the therapeutic and emotional value of loudness.. On a friend's system (an excellent one) I have once heard Fleetwood Mac's Tusk at a very important SPL, and finally realised the communicational potential of pop songs. After 50 years of record playing..!

My living room has unpleasant resonances at higher levels so 12 o' clock is definitely off limits for me.

M

(Massimi, you have a post on your profile wall)

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

The SN2 has a preamp section that is the equal (to my ears) to that of the 272. I don't think I could tell them apart in a blind test. To give you an indication of its potential as a separates replacement, I used the SN2 many times in place of my 82/HiCap/250 with great satisfaction, except for occasional times when more power was needed to drive my 8" two-way speakers in the large open-plan living area that they animate. The clarity and nuance of the SN2 was evident and outclassed the 82, but I missed the power of the 250. Problem now solved with the purchase of a used 252/SuperCap to front the 250. The SN2 has returned to the modest-size basement listening room where it never ceases to draw us into the music - agnostic to genre -  while also providing great depth and power to movie soundtracks in two-channel mode.

Sorry to go off topic, but just out of interest, have you made much of a comparison between the SN2 and 252/SC/250?

I have and the latter combination is in a different league, which is as it should be given the price difference. The 252/SC deals in grace and beauty (with wallop when required) and provides that wonderful time-expanding effect that few components provide (and that I'd never experienced with cables, until the Super Luminas arrived). 

(Apologies to Tallan for using your thread. Again.)

Jan

"Apologies to Tallan for using your thread. Again."

No worries.