NAC 202 or 282 as Upgrade from NaitXS2?

Not a waste of time ! Very good electronics can make even entry level speakers shine, but entry level electronics cannot drive very good speakers well.

Sorry I have lots of respect for your views, but I report as I hear.

Just to give you an example.

I find the tidal app on Iphone very useful, (especially the offline mode which saves the song on the phone).

So yesterday in my car I was listening to a few new dance tracks (Robin Schulz - sugar) through the Iphone headphone out jack, it was good, but still not what I am now used to at home with my Hugo/282HCDR/200. Maybe I need a better interconnect because this particular song is very enjoyable and sounds good on most basic systems.

But then this morning, in the car, same speakers, same interconnect, but I played the Iphone into Hugo, and the music got much more engaging, like it was a turbocharged system - every bit as engaging to me as Hugo into 282/HCDR/200. The bass grip, speed and quantity took on another level in my car and I found myself really enjoying and not wishing to change any aspect of the sound quality.

So electronics come for me in my experience much before speakers, and speakers should be the very last component in the chain to improve. 

I also recently tested my DAC V1 as DAC/preamp compared to Hugo/282/HCDR and the fall in sound quality was jaw dropping (but not in a good way). This was prior to the recent DAC V1 software upgrade so I need to re-do this test again.

Same speakers.

It is the same old story, amplifiers and speakers cannot reproduce something that was never there from the source.

 

catalinmetal posted:

not to metion using very expensive and good electronics on entry-level / old speakers... a waste of time, if you ask me...

So Catalinmetal, rather than removing my current speakers and amplifier from the car, and putting better speakers and better amplifiers, I found exactly what I needed by changing the source from the built-in dac in the car stereo to Hugo into the analog input.

In your case the ovator s400 is perfectly matched to your 200DR rig, but would you consider 172/200Dr and Ovator S800?

there is an old post by Richard Dane (search Richard Dane source first) and he tried ipod into his 552/500 and I think CDX2 into a heed obelisk amplifier, and he much preferred the CDX2 into the much more modest amplifier. I have found over the years that Richard always gives consistently good advice, when he advised me source first and foremost.

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Massimo,

The SN2 has a preamp section that is the equal (to my ears) to that of the 272. I don't think I could tell them apart in a blind test.

Jan

sorry Jan, this time we don't heard the same. i thought 272 is slightly superior to SN2 as preamp. in fact i think that both 172 and 272 have very-very good VFM.

Fair enough. If we all heard things the same way, this would be a pretty boring place.

analogmusic, you seem to miss the point in my posts...

i never said to use very expensive speakers with entrylevel electronics, balance is the key, BUT, if one should consider a limited budget, i always recommended to get the best speakers affordable for that budget!

nowadays the difference in digital sources is not that huge... and although sometimes wrong source or amp will brake the matching of the setup, i still strongly advice that a setup should start with speakers first!

The thing is that many others, including myself, think that you are giving very poor advice. 

well, that's like... your opinion... man!

it is also your opinion, but my experience leads me to agree very wholeheartedly with Richard Dane, Naim, and one UK dealer - UHES (one of the partners has a PHD in loudspeaker design). And when Norman of UHES says speakers count the last, and should be changed the last, he would know. and slowly I came to understand this.

Maybe you will too... like I did.

It's an interesting debate but let's, as Einstein would, do a "thought experiment" (I'm NO Einstein, believe me).

Imagine your source (electronics) reproduced no frequencies below 5Khz, and your speakers reproduced no frequency above 5Khz.  The system could cost you all outdoors but it would still be silent, right?

It's clear to me at least that the only solution is to have both source components AND speakers which can enjoyably reproduce the full audio spectrum.  The best speakers in the world coupled with the crippled source would still have no bass, and the best source in the world with the crippled speakers would still have no treble: both situations would be totally unsatisfactory.

So as Mr. Miyagi so sagely put it the key is balance.  Source first versus speakers first seems, at least to me, like asking which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

the source comes first. it is difficult to make a truly bad sounding amplifier and bad sounding speakers nowadays. Some companies can even make very good sounding amps out of chip amps (not discrete components like Naim)

but making a truly excellent source that sounds engaging and brings music to life, that is an art mastered by only a few manufacturers.

The DAC V1 before the software update and after is a marked change, makes the amp and speakers sound very different (much better) to my ears. 

analogmusic posted:

the source comes first. ...

The DAC V1 before the software update and after is a marked change, makes the amp and speakers sound very different (much better) to my ears. 

My point is thru mediocre or poor speakers would you even be able to hear that change?  And maybe with even better speakers you'd hear a greater and more significant improvement?

Seems hard to deny.  But as I say, I'm no Einstein.

Gentlemen, as I follow this discussion with great interest, please let my contribute my experiences:

I entered the world of NAIM some four years ago and added a nice Stageline MM + Nait XS to my system consisting of Rega RP9 + Exact cartridge and MBL 311d speakers. Funds did not allow for new speakers and I was quite happy with them, advising the dealer not to change them.

The NAIM electronic made a refreshingly difference to the Creek CD+amp I owned before, yet I wondered what all the fuzz was about. Step by step I upgraded, first added HiCap to the Nait XS, then switched the Exact cartridge for a Goldring Ucello Reference, then added a dedicated HiCap DR for the Stageline. Yet I was not really happy, wondering what this PRaT-talk was all about.

After that I upgraded to a Lyra Delos + Superline E which made a massive difference and enhanced my listening pleasure to a great extend.

But still not completely satisfied and talking to my dealer about the next upgrades, which was quite a surprise for the dealer, given that the RP9+Delos+Superline+HiCap ist not too bad. He raised the topic of my speakers again, suggesting to try some other speakers - which was a revelation!

We found that the old MBL311d speakers I had, slowed down the music, just killing all the joy and speed. They had a nice, warm tone, but listening to music became boring very fast. 

Now with new speakers I can finally enjoy all the speed and pace that NAIM electronics bring to the party.

Looking back, I probably would not have upgraded to Lyra Delos + Superline, if I had swapped speakers earlier. 

P, what did you end up with for speakers?

They are included in his profile. 

Agree, the speakers that deliver the sound in the room could make a real different, they need to be matched and easy driven by the amplifier to work properly. If not, no matter whatever source, amp, streamer is used. If the speaker is the weakest, they do not work well. I upgraded my Audiovector two times, the second time with a very good result. From Si3A to Si3AA and finally now SR3AA level. For example, if using a "small" amp like a NaitXS, it now drives the SR3AA much easier especially in the bass, and also the soundstage width. Of course, with a bigger amp, the SR3AA will be even better, but maybe not if I kept the Si3AA level. So the result for me was, loadspeakers that is driven easily at similar price level as all the other components.

Tallan posted:

P, what did you end up with for speakers?

My NAIM dealer offers B&W, Kudos and some other brands as well as a small series of custom made speakers he voices to fit with NAIM gear. As my listening room is quite small and I listen at low volume, I opted for 2 way bookshelf speakers that are very fast and transparent.

p. posted:

Tallan posted:

P, what did you end up with for speakers?

My NAIM dealer offers B&W, Kudos and some other brands as well as a small series of custom made speakers he voices to fit with NAIM gear. As my listening room is quite small and I listen at low volume, I opted for 2 way bookshelf speakers that are very fast and transparent.

Very nice!  I love all the vinyl...

thanks, tallan!

analogmusic posted:

it is difficult to make a truly bad sounding amplifier and bad sounding speakers nowadays. Some companies can even make very good sounding amps out of chip amps (not discrete components like Naim)

really?!

seems you haven't heard enough, then! i heard A LOT of bad designed amps and speakers, and especially speakers... is is very easy to build something with incorrect phasing of all the drivers, and very hard to build them with correct phasing... but some do not even notice this, that's the funny side

for example, i chose the Ovators exactly because the driver phasing and integration is second to none, by my own humble ears and brain...

if you think or say or recommend that actually ANY other speaker performs rather not far from the Ovators, then, ther is no point in folowing this discussion with you, as to me you are lost (for words)...

as for good amps with op-amps... ok, it already seems i'm loosing time and wasting energy on this one...

i have listened to literally thousends of different equimpents over time, and i have a degree in electronics, and i can tell you that is not an easy task to make an amp or a speaker to sound really good... the easiest part of the chain to do right, nowadays woth digital tech, is... you guessed - the source!

Naim have a very strong commercial belief in supporting the importance of electronics over speakers, since they are mainly electronics producer, and generally, worldwide, perceived as such!

and while i value very much Richard Dane's contribution on the forum, i cannot dissasociate him from general Naim's politics... and as an honest bloke like he is, neither can he!

the fact that such a strong company as Naim has survived and now actually teaches others some "manners" even in the field of speaker production, is really a good news to me, a die-hard fan, but i do not embrace every view shared by the Salisbury's based brand... i take what i like from them, and i like a lot, and disregard what i don't, and i have to pleasantly admin that lately, just very few things have left to disregard or debate.

just have patience, and as i said that Naim PSU's are way too expensive to use just that rather humble LM317 integrated, and Naim introduced the DR spec, just as i said that Naim power amps are a bit old as sound and sirection, and Naim refreshed nicely the NAP collection... just as i said that sometimes way too many products to coverge into the same function Naim released 2 superproducts with 3 functions, one of them even with no other item upgrade possibility, namely 172 and 272... the times are changing, and soon Naim will realise that by going further, source first will not do any justice, when rather cheap products start, nowadays, to deliver rather decent quality, as signal source.

let's have this debate over an year or better two... and we will see!

As an ex Ovator owner, one thing for sure is they will sound equally good, or bad, depending on how good or average the source is. Any decent speaker will do this.

Massimo Bertola posted:

On the 282 I have mixed impressions: some find it also not fast a

True I just love what the 282 does so tend to over eulogise but what I love most is the sheer pace and groove.

Having just read this thread I was wondering if my experience will be of interest. I am not a well heeled audiophile and have long owned a "junior" active Naim Nac92/flatcap/Ixo/Nap 90 combination initially with Intro speakers but upgraded to Allaes. My primary source is LP12 which was progressively upgraded to its current spec LP12/Cirkus/Ekos/Dynavector D3/Prefix/Olive Hicap. The Nac92 developed a noisy volume control and so I decided that replacement and possible upgrade was required. I don't have deep pockets but managed to afford a 202 and shortly after NAPSC and Hicap DR.
This really elevated the performance of my system even with the lower range amplification and I was pleasantly shocked at how much potential there still is in those baby amps. I had the IXO serviced by Naim and while it was away loaned a newly serviced olive NAP250 with a view to reverting to passive with a better quality single amp.
I may get ridiculed here, but where the 250 produced a "bigger" and perhaps more dynamic presentation it felt sluggish and couldn't keep time, like a dinosaur trying to Tango, I was unmoved. In comparison the serviced IXO with Nap 90's albeit leaner, simply just sounded more musical and involving and beat the 250 for sheer PRaT. So I saved myself some money for now and have had the 90's Naim serviced and they seem to have a level of synergy with the 202/Hicap DR/Napsc that is quite unbelievable.

Well I'm not a well heeled audiophile either,  but if one takes any stock into the listening chain, it appears that your front end is no slouch.

Oh, did you say Active!

Smart cookie!!!!!

""junior" active Naim Nac92/flatcap/Ixo/Nap 90 combination initially with Intro speakers but upgraded to Allaes. My primary source is LP12 which was progressively upgraded to its current spec LP12/Cirkus/Ekos/Dynavector D3/Prefix/Olive Hicap."

Very nice system, Richard 2000!!!!!!!!