'New' Naim DAC Strikes a Chord

Mayor West - well the Hugo (not 2Qute) is of incredible quality and a few around here have replaced their NDS with a Hugo - but as always audition carefully - there is far more to the quality of these components rather superficial tonal balance. But being both a NDAC and Hugo fan (I was never an NDS fan) the NDAC and Hugo resolve and reconstruct fairly differently to my ears on my system

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mayor West - well the Hugo (not 2Qute) is of incredible quality and a few around here have replaced their NDS with a Hugo - but as always audition carefully - there is far more to the quality of these components rather superficial tonal balance. But being both a NDAC and Hugo fan (I was never an NDS fan) the NDAC and Hugo resolve and reconstruct fairly differently to my ears on my system

Simon

Thanks for the clarification Simon

How many of you have auditioned the Schiit Yggdrasil?

I'll start by learning how to pronounce it.

DynFan160 posted:

How many of you have auditioned the Schiit Yggdrasil?

Not me, but I've heard plenty of Schiit Happenz.

G

DynFan160 posted:

How many of you have auditioned the Schiit Yggdrasil?

DynaFan:  I have one in the rack at the moment on its 15 day free trial .. I am very impressed .. methinks it may not be going back to California ..

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

I'll start by learning how to pronounce it.

What? You don't speak a German / Old Norse hybrid?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mayor West - well the Hugo (not 2Qute) is of incredible quality

simon, do you not rate the 2qute? Ive read comments that it was as good as hugo or even better if using usb.

has anyone compared naim dac with v1? id be interested to know the sonic differences

John Willmott posted:

DynFan160 posted:

How many of you have auditioned the Schiit Yggdrasil?

DynaFan:  I have one in the rack at the moment on its 15 day free trial .. I am very impressed .. methinks it may not be going back to California ..

With all the brands/models floating around out there it would be nice to hear comments on DACs other than Naim and Chord.

Well, the Resonessence Labs Mirus has stood its ground here. It's a very different presentation to the nDAC, even with the new firmware. The Hugo has come and gone in our house, as has the Audiolab M-DAC. The Mirus just gets on with its job of communicating the music in a most beguiling way, no matter the genre. Compact and quite affordable in North America, but less so in Europe. Note though that it can't be upgraded by an external PSU, so that lowers the long-term cost. In our house, it was previously feeding an 82, and now a 252+SuperCap and in no way does it feel outclassed. It does DSD, has a USB input and an SD card reader that turns it into a complete (and formidable) source. A keeper. Resonessence has a DAC-less streamer in the works. Very much looking forward to it.

Jan

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Well, the Resonessence Labs Mirus has stood its ground here. It's a very different presentation to the nDAC, even with the new firmware. The Hugo has come and gone in our house, as has the Audiolab M-DAC. The Mirus just gets on with its job of communicating the music in a most beguiling way, no matter the genre. Compact and quite affordable in North America, but less so in Europe. Note though that it can't be upgraded by an external PSU, so that lowers the long-term cost. In our house, it was previously feeding an 82, and now a 252+SuperCap and in no way does it feel outclassed. It does DSD, has a USB input and an SD card reader that turns it into a complete (and formidable) source. A keeper. Resonessence has a DAC-less streamer in the works. Very much looking forward to it.

Jan

The ESS chip might scare off some people but I suppose implementation is as/more important than the chip itself.

Personally with the Mirus the price is what scares me away.

The aforementioned Yggdrasil (what a ridiculous name) is intriguing as are some of the offerings from Aqua (La Scala).

Wish I could demo all of them at home.

Fear of the ESS chip is irrational. As you say, implementation is everything, especially when done by engineers who design the chips in the first place...

Yggdrasil is the tree of life in Norse mythology:

It is an eternal green Ash tree; the branches stretch out over all of the nine worlds, and extend up and above the heavens. Yggdrasil is carried by three enormous roots. The first root from Yggdrasil is in Asgard, the home of the gods. By this root is a well named Urd’s well. This is where the gods held daily meetings. The second root from Yggdrasil goes down to Jotunheim, the land of the giants, by this root is Mimir's well. The third root from Yggdrasil goes down to Niflheim, close to the well Hvergelmir. It is here the dragon Nidhug gnawed on one of Yggdrasils roots. Nidhug is also known to suck the blood out of the dead bodies. At the very top of Yggdrasil there lives an eagle. And down by the roots of the tree lives a dragon named Nidhug. The eagle and the dragon are bitter enemies. They truly despise each other. A squirrel named Ratatosk, is spending a lot of time each day, running up and down the tree. Ratatosk does whatever he can, to keep the hatred between the eagle and Nidhug alive. Every time Nidhug says a curse or an insult about the eagle, Ratatosk will run up to the top of the tree, and inform the eagle what Nidhug just said. The eagle is equally rude in his comments about Nidhug. Ratatosk just loves to gossip which is the reason why the eagle and the dragon remains constant foes.*

I wonder if Schiit will market a Ratatosk interconnect.

* Source : viking mythology dot com

It is an eternal green Ash tree; the branches stretches out over all of the nine worlds, and extend up and above the heavens. Yggdrasil is carried by three enormous roots. The first root from Yggdrasil is in Asgard, the home of the gods. By this root is a well named Urd’s well. This is where the gods held daily meetings. The second root from Yggdrasil goes down to Jotunheim, the land of the giants, by this root is Mimir's well.

An 1847 depiction of the Norse Yggdrasil as described in the Icelandic Prose Edda.
By Oluf Olufsen Bagge

The third root from Yggdrasil goes down to Niflheim, close to the well Hvergelmir. It is here the dragon Nidhug gnawed on one of Yggdrasils roots. Nidhug is also known to suck the blood out of the dead bodies. At the very top of Yggdrasil there lives an eagle. And down by the roots of the tree lives a dragon named Nidhug. The eagle and the dragon are bitter enemies. They truly despise each other. A squirrel named Ratatosk, is spending a lot of time each day, running up and down the tree. Ratatosk does whatever he can, to keep the hatred between the eagle and Nidhug alive. Every time Nidhug says a curse or an insult about the eagle, Ratatosk will run up to the top of the tree, and inform the eagle what Nidhug just said. The eagle is equally rude in his comments about Nidhug. Ratatosk just loves to gossip which is the reason why the eagle and the dragon remains constant foes.

- See more at: http://www.viking-mythology.co...sthash.nf06GNK8.dpuf

I've had the update in for a day and a bit now.

Certainly sounding different. Tonally it's nicely fleshed out and L/R separation is better but it's not as Naim-ey in presentation; it's sweeter. Good thing/bad thing? Dunno! Either way it's a classier sounding DAC and thanks to Naim for the update.

Blimey, I feel very old school going from NDX to NDS. Never tried Chord nor Resonessence Labs Mirus nor Schiit Yggdrasil for that matter. I just love reference to the Schiit brand because I am sure it is not but we can all have some (rather childish) fun discussing it.

Anyway I feel an urge to plug the NDS having listened to it tonight. Simply sublime at communicating emotion, musicianship and the sheer enjoyment of musicians/artists doing their stuff. It does need to be set up well and matched with partnering amplification and speakers in an empathetic way. If you can capture its magic it will bring tears (of joy I hasten to add) to your eyes on the right (for you) material.

Maybe I should try a non-Naim DAC but I have never felt the need and have just enjoyed what Naim streamers (DACs) do.

There I go, exaggerating again!

nigelb posted:

...Simply sublime at communicating emotion, musicianship and the sheer enjoyment of musicians/artists doing their stuff...

There, you've just described the Mirus.

Halloween Man posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mayor West - well the Hugo (not 2Qute) is of incredible quality

simon, do you not rate the 2qute? Ive read comments that it was as good as hugo or even better if using usb.

Hi, the 2Qute is a great DAC, and yes the USB implementation on the Hugo to my ears is poor.. But with SPDIF from a quality transport such as a Naim transport and using quality interconnects, I have yet to hear the Hugo beaten in shear communication ability across music genres, and audio dramas.. but I have heard DACs with different tonal balances and presentations/colourations?  that perhaps appeal more to certain types of music better such as heavy blues. As my experience has developed here, I am of the opinion with DACs /CD players etc.. There can be virtues in different presentations from different devices. After all we are listening and enjoying music not operating scientific test equipment. One size doesn't have to fit all.

Simon

It's funny how much better the Naim DAC is now. I'm just listening to some more complex rock music (Jimmy Eat World - Damage). It's rhythmically quite difficult music for many setups and really just the kind of music where Naim is at its absolute best (IMHO). This album doesn't have that best sound quality, which is quite typical to this kind of punk/rock music, but now after the firmware update, tracks are so much easier to follow. I can hear clear separation between instruments and new details on drums and highs. All this with extremely good PRaT, which has always been top notch on Naim DAC. On an average setup, this kind of music usually sounds like one big mess with all the instruments muffled and mixed with poor detail recovery. I could hear this effect with old Naim DAC but after the firmware update, not anymore. Music sends shivers through my spine at the moment, whole new level of insight to the music. I'm very grateful for the update, thanks Naim!

Have you tried any poorly recorded/mastered albums after the update? I think the difference is even more obvious with this kind of albums.

Interesting - if anything I've found it slightly less forgiving of poor or overly compressed recordings. This is a price worth paying - I don't have that many - but the 90s indie rock albums that were unplayable until I added the XPS are once again pretty iffy. 

Also, the (deliberate, mostly) 'necro' production on various black metal releases once more conflicts quite heavily with what the system's trying to do. Records, of course, made on terrible equipment to be played on terrible equipment and hardly the sort of thing Naim could be expected to care much about when voicing new products!

Well there can be many kind of poorly recorded albums. Some of them sound harsh and unlistenable with wrong kind of setups. With those albums you need a setup which isn't highly resolving or detail oriented. But some of them (like the one I'm listening atm) sound muffled and like a big mess when your setup can't keep up with the PRaT and at the same time pick up the individual sounds and instruments from the mix. I think PRaT has always been extremely good on Naim DAC but it fell short on the latter aspects before the new firmware. Now the sound is more balanced. As a guy who loves Naim sound, detail retrieval, soundstage etc has never been my priorities. But of course if you can improve on them while still keeping all the goodness where Naim excels, we have a winning combination.

What everyone has said +

more detail in harmonic spectrum of notes - giving better sense of "shape" to some material.

more sensitive to system set up, cable position is very noticeable.

Perhaps it exposes more its weaknesses , still could be better delineation of bass textures, but then I don't have a power supply .

TOBYJUG posted:

What everyone has said +

more detail in harmonic spectrum of notes - giving better sense of "shape" to some material.

more sensitive to system set up, cable position is very noticeable.

Perhaps it exposes more its weaknesses , still could be better delineation of bass textures, but then I don't have a power supply .

The XPS for me fully realises the benefits of the firmware upgrade TOBYJUG.

G

I recently demoed XP5 XS and a 3rd party manufacturer's PSU for my Naim DAC. Surprisingly, I liked bare Naim DAC the best. Both PSU's brought so much more bottom end to my setup that it got out of hand in my small flat and with ATC SCM40v2. My ATC's are on the edge of being too big for my apartment but with my current setup, everything is in order. The extra beef on bottom end was the clearest difference with the upgrade PSU but otherwise I didn't hear that much improvement. I haven't auditioned XPS2 or XPS2 DR, but maybe I will at some point. Maybe it'll be different with the new firmware. I've also changed the interconnect cable since. But now my the setup is in very good balance. 

Halloween Man posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mayor West - well the Hugo (not 2Qute) is of incredible quality

simon, do you not rate the 2qute? Ive read comments that it was as good as hugo or even better if using usb.

has anyone compared naim dac with v1? id be interested to know the sonic differences

IME I didn't get on with the 2qute in my system finding the sound a bit harsh compared to the Hugo, and that was using USB. 

I think it's great that Naim have finally upgraded the NDAC with a firmware upgrade and all credit to them for not just repackaging it as a new DAC. It was about time though. At least it gave the Hugo bashers something to shout about.

I shall be reviewing the DAC situation for my system in the new year and, along with the Chord DAVE and HugoTT, I'll now include the NDAC/PS. The result will depend on the relative SQ of all the performers. If there is a clear winner then that's what I'll go for but if the results are close then I'll go for the best bang for the buck. 

kudos to Naim for updating the DAC V1 and NDAC. DAC V1 sounds like another machine.

BUT 

Listening to my Hugo with headphones while typing this and I have to agree with Simon, it is still as good as ever and sounds engaging, fun to me and does the Naim PRAT thing too... My Hugo isn't going anywhere, Graeme you are making a huge mistake selling it. 

I do wonder sometimes, the accuracy of any dac can only be at best as good as the analog to digital convertor used in the first place to convert the music to a digital format. I would guess the Naim dac, V1, Hugo, and 2qute are all more sophisticated convertors than the original ad convertors of yesteryear (since 1980s) that were used in recording studios. Perhaps the only important consideration, as ever, is which sonic signature you actually prefer to listen to as all are capable convertors that are converting from a less than perfect digital source.

I'd like to know the sonic differences between the updated Naim Dac and the V1?