282/200 - What a revelation....

Thanks Rock!

Tony is that a standard answer based on general convention here on the Forum or have you actually listened to both side by side on the 282? I am asking because I have done a week's long home demo of both on my SuperNait and the difference was negligible, if existing at all. I accept that any difference would be more pronounced on the 282 but I wonder whether using both SNAICs from the FCXS to feed the 282 does not close the gap substantially. It is all well and good to say HC2 is better but is it really in this case? Unless you have done the comparison, I am not convinced. And I don't mean a FC or 2X either.

Best

tp

As I got it the preamp section of the Sn and a 282 are of such difference that experiences on one may not be able to travel to the other although PS upgrades often have a recognizable effect across the product range. The interesting question is whether the utilization of 4 x 24V but lower quality rails of the FCSX actually compares with the 2x24V higher quality rails of the HC. If so the HC era may meet its end soon. Have anyone tried newer generations of FC (with 2 x 2 rails) on 82 or 282´s and compared the effect to a single HC ? 

cheers,

The difference that different power supplies can bring is amazing, but you really need to do the demo for yourself.

I started with a 202/200 combo, and when I bought a StageLine I ran it off the powered Aux2 of the 202, which in turn was powered by the 200.

A FlatCap 2X brought very worthwhile improvements, powering both the StageLine and the 202, and so did the NAPSC2.

Then replacing the power supply to the phonostage (by this time I had upgraded from the StageLineto a Prefix) with a HiCap2  brought benefit to both the Prefix, and the 202 which now had a FlatCap2X to itself.

Replacing the FlatCap2X with a HiCap2 on the 202 again brought big benefits.

I've just replaced the HiCap2 on the Prefix with a SuperCap2. It is ridiculous how much benefit the SuperCap2 brings to a Prefix, when such a tiny amount of its potential is being used by the Prefix, but I did the demo and then saved for a while to get the SuperCap.

The most important thing I can suggest is demo for yourself, the forum can only make suggestions based on individuals experience with their kit in their room, and it might not always follow for you.

Enjoy the journey,

John

Inside the HC is a large transformator and big capacitators.

Inside the FC is a lot of air...

It just might make the FCXS sound a bit more airy, not a bad thing at all 

Hi Congratulation on your upgrade, you will never stop it when you try Hicap or Supercap power supply. If I were you I will try CDX2 with SN or 202/200 first before step to 282. The 282 is another level than SN or 202, nothing for both models can compete to 282. If you think 282/200 are so nice, then you should try 282/SC/250 in full flow, I am sure you will blow away again and again......, but make sure you change your speaker.

unfortunatelly, the urban legends repeated over and over on the forum have their effect...

there is no actual difference in quality over Naim power supplies, meaning between FC, HC and SC, since the main component providing the actual DC needed for pre-amp stages is THE SAME LM317 regulator, only that in FC comes in it's "open" type, and for the HC and SC the encapsulated type was preffered (technically it provides better heat dissipation, but inside there is the same circuit).

bigger transformer and bigger caps over the regulator output, which in Naim's implementations usually spills out 24V per rail, has little effect on the sound, since it is not used to power directly a power stage (which usually draws at peaks and transients huge currents, and thus a clever sized transformer and caps will provide some noticable benefits) but it is not the case here. Instead here we are talking in DC for another DC "provider", which is used in a small signal circuit such as a pre-amp, and therefore, bigger transformer means no real gain in terms of SQ, but means filling up a larger and heavier black box, and thus justifies to many a significant increase in price.

real benefits in the quality of the DC provided can be actually achieved, but with OTHER regulators and not with the LM317 which is the only one used at Naim. in this way, with a better regulator but a small transformer and decent caps one can achieve more noticable results in powering the Naim pre-amps.

i think Naim chose the LM317 cause it provides the coloration they need, or better spelled, the LM317 doesn't changes the coloration of the traditional Naim house sound, and second reason, it is very very cheap and very easy to implement (the encapsulated version runs for 0,4 USD in retail regime).

of course, we can hear a lot of things when coupling a Naim PSU to a Naim pre, sometimes we may even hear Nirvana crawling inside our homes like a giant snake, but the reality is more simple than that. it is a common fact in audio (and not only) that people learn to experience things based on the tales and experiences of others repeated over and over...

Others proove my point:  they use better regulators and provide better SQ for a lot less money. of course, the downside is that it has not the "naim" logo on the front... so i guess that logo in itself is that expensive...

unfortunatelly, the urban legends repeated over and over on the forum have their effect...

there is no actual difference in quality over Naim power supplies, meaning between FC, HC and SC, since the main component providing the actual DC needed for pre-amp stages is THE SAME LM317 regulator, only that in FC comes in it's "open" type, and for the HC and SC the encapsulated type was preffered (technically it provides better heat dissipation, but inside there is the same circuit).

bigger transformer and bigger caps over the regulator output, which in Naim's implementations usually spills out 24V per rail, has little effect on the sound, since it is not used to power directly a power stage (which usually draws at peaks and transients huge currents, and thus a clever sized transformer and caps will provide some noticable benefits) but it is not the case here. Instead here we are talking in DC for another DC "provider", which is used in a small signal circuit such as a pre-amp, and therefore, bigger transformer means no real gain in terms of SQ, but means filling up a larger and heavier black box, and thus justifies to many a significant increase in price.

real benefits in the quality of the DC provided can be actually achieved, but with OTHER regulators and not with the LM317 which is the only one used at Naim. in this way, with a better regulator but a small transformer and decent caps one can achieve more noticable results in powering the Naim pre-amps.

i think Naim chose the LM317 cause it provides the coloration they need, or better spelled, the LM317 doesn't changes the coloration of the traditional Naim house sound, and second reason, it is very very cheap and very easy to implement (the encapsulated version runs for 0,4 USD in retail regime).

of course, we can hear a lot of things when coupling a Naim PSU to a Naim pre, sometimes we may even hear Nirvana crawling inside our homes like a giant snake, but the reality is more simple than that. it is a common fact in audio (and not only) that people learn to experience things based on the tales and experiences of others repeated over and over...

only 2 examples i will give to proove my point: Avondale and Teddy PSUs. they use better regulators and provide better SQ for a lot less money. of course, the downside is that it has not the "naim" logo on the front... so i guess that logo in itself is that expensive...

Cat, all well and good as far as it goes but you miss out so much that you cannot see.  You would do so if you went to visit the factory.

The LM317 is a good regulator so I'm told, however it really comes into its own when critically selected and matched.  This is excatly what Naim do, and if you visited the factory you would see the LM317s being individually selected and then matched on custom jigs.  Not that many make the grade, those that do, are no longer components costing less than a dollar.  The cost and time to select and match, as well as the cost of discarding so many that don't meet Naim's specific criteria, means that it becomes very much more expensive.

I believe that the DIY PSU fraternity have acknowledged that the cost to do this on a small scale is prohibitive and then what are the criteria??  So, acknowledged that if trying to design an LM317 regulated supply, Naim will almost always win out, hence perhaps the desire to choose another path.  A path not necessarily better, and indeed, usually just different.  Naim stick with the LM317 for good reason.  It always just seems to work better than other alternatives they have tried

p.s. Please stick to forum rules in your posts. At least one of the companies you mentioned has made very clear they will take firm action if their company name is mentioned on here.

p.p.s No bull or subliminal method required.  Naim have always said "trust your ears".  If a Supercap doesn't do it over a Hicap then save yourself the cash.  Only problem is, it just does....

I know we live in a text age, but is it possible for posters to actually use Capitals and some form of punctuation.

My posts are full of errors so it's not asked to be pedantic, just to try and make longer posts more readable.

TIA,

H.

As regards this thread, do the components of a Ferrari add up to the cost of the particular car? They have ordinary IC engines , normal format wheels and the tyres look the same as other manufacturers. No hang on they do R&D to perfect these items (apparently), much the same as NAIM do with their component selection processes.

I too would urge a factory visit if it's possible then one can get an idea of why these things cost what they do. 

Yep, I found that out last year when I put a stone cold SuperCap on my Prefix.

My reaction was along the lines of "Oh bother, that's not funny!" Or words to that effect, they might have been slightly different. 

I've had to save quite hard, and sell off some other toys, to buy a SuperCap2 for my Prefix. I can tell you quite categorically I wouldn't have done that if I wasn't 200% sure of how much the better PSU would bring to my system.

After all, the power coming out of the powered AUX2 of a 202, even when powered by a 200, is adequate according to the electrical requirements of the phono stage. Indeed it sounded far better than a monobloc phono stage with a very good external PSU from another manufacturer.

The Naim kit justs gets better with better PSUs. I've heard the difference as I have moved from internal power, to FlatCap 2X, to HiCap2, to SuperCap2 on my phono stage. That is why I've paid out for a SuperCap2, not so I can brag about it.

Judge the kit with your ears, rather than from a specification sheet. Otherwise you'll continue to come across as someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Hopefully that is not your intention.

Cheers

John

Richard,

What happens to those that are discarded, are they recycled, i.e. does Naim have a deal in place with the manufacturer so that those that don't make the grade can be returned and used for other purposes with less stringent quality controls or are they simply chucked in the bin? I know nothing of electronics but unless they are being used for something else this would be an awful waste of resources and would not bode well on Naim's carbon footprint, something that ought to be a consideration and high priority of any good company in this time and age.

Can you please clarify?

Thank you 

tp

I seem to remember on a factory tour that the rejected components are sold on to component dealers, as they are still working as per spec, just not one that fits NAIM data sheet.

When they used alloy sleeves for the cases, there were piles of rejected cases, awaiting the fires of hell to recycle them. 

tp,

as far as I'm aware, nothing at Naim is "thrown in the bin".  An awful lot of components are carefully selected. Just because a component doesn't meet Naim's criteria doesn't mean it won't be fine for somebody else. After all, according to supplier, they're basically all the same (which is why Naim entrust selection and matching to nobody but Naim).

Anyway, the electronics industry have factors who can match need with supply for excess component stock right across the industry.  And of course there are strict rules on disposal, scrappage and recycling.  Worth remembering that it's an additional cost the entire industry have to bear in Europe.

Richard,

Good to know the process. Btw, I used the term "thrown in the bin" loosly not literally, should have been more precise in my choice of words. It helps to avoid confusion...

Many thanks

tp

tp,

Enjoy your new bits of kit man.

I just wish catmental would stop thread crapping with his thoughts?? when anyone mentions Naim psu's.

G.

Richard, just like Campagnolo did with bicycle bearings. Kept the cream of the crop, and sold the rest to other manufacturers.

Dave

chun wei wrote:

"Hi Chris,

If I have budget which one will you recomend to upgrade first? get a hicap or CDX2 first?

Thanks."

Hi chun wei, You know my thoughts on this! CDX2 

Now back to tp's thread...

Chris

Look, all you scientific types are making it far too compicated.

Just look at the product names:

Flat(cap), Hi(cap) and Super(cap).

Very easy to see a heirarchy and which is best :-)

Oh ok

thanks Chris

Hi John,

I started with 5i-2 then XS then I add a flatcap2x. The naim journey had been really amazing and enjoyable hmmmmm......supercap2 with supernait perhaps

Thanks

Chun wei

But a Supercap2 on a NAC202 or NAC282 is even better 

Engelbert

Hi Engelbert,

Yeah baby!!!!!! I can never forget the jaw dropping experience adding a cap to a naim setup is like having my 1st porn magazine

Good Post. Trust your ears (said it all).