282/200 - What a revelation....

Posted by: totemphile on 16 May 2011

Last week I took delivery of a 282/200 to replace my SuperNait. I had not planned for this but as fate would have it a very good offer presented itself for a mint 282, barely a year old. The offer was simply too good to let it pass by. I was lucky enough to source an equally newish 200 shortly afterwards and both finally arrived at the end of last week. I spent the weekend taking down my system, readjusting the individual Fraim levels and setting it all up again. And I have to say, I am absolutely blown away by the difference this joint upgrade has made to the overall performance of my system and more importantly the enjoyment derived from the music being played. The 282 adds a level of resolution and presence that is simply way above that which I had experienced with the SuperNait so far. The 200, or both together, has added a level of control that I had simply not experienced thus far. Both suit the Forest perfectly, the speakers are absolutely loving it. In fact they've been waiting for this ever since I bought them.

 

It has been a long journey to finally arrive at a point again where things are well balanced. Some of you may recall from my earlier posts that I started out with a CD5X/ Nait XS/ FC2X/ Totem Arro combo. I was very happy with that system, well balanced, simple and all the more fascinating for it. As with many here I had an itch to upgrade to bigger and better speakers though. For me it was the Forest and albeit I loved them from the first day on they were the primary cause for all the upgrades and headaches that have followed since. My system became unbalanced by their introduction, the Nait XS was no longer sufficiently powerful to drive them properly. The SuperNait followed. I liked it a lot but never quite loved it completely, something was still missing. The bass of the Forest remained uncontrolled with certain types of music and at times at high volumes too. To be fair room acoustics also played a part in this. I experimented with mass loading, 5Kg of dry silica sand in each of the lower cabinets did some good but it still was not perfect.

 

For a long time I categorically dismissed the pre/power route, for rack space and financial reasons. The SuperNait seemed like the ideal solution, when it wasn't, not for the Forest at least, not in my system and the room the speakers are in. It is difficult to quantify but I would go so far as to say that the 282/200 has been the most significant and rewarding upgrade so far in a long chain of upgrades. This combination is so sweet, absolutely sublime. Today I was reading another post here on the forum, where someone spoke of his level of contentment, that for the first time he felt he had reached a point where things were just right. I had that exact feeling when I heard the 282/200 playing for the first time. All that came to mind was WOW! The energy and drive this combination brings to the party is in a different league completely. The Forest just can't get enough of it and I am loving it!!

 

I should add, the 282/200 was great on its own when I first heard it. In fact I had planned to run this combination without any additional power supply to save me another Fraim level. For better or worse I still had my FCXS lying about and decided to hook it up to the 282, just to see what sort of difference it made. And what a difference it did make! It brought the entire presentation alive to a point that I had not experienced with the Nait XS or SuperNait thus far. TBO I never thought the FCXS or HC2 for that matter made such a big change to the SuperNait to begin with and couldn't quite understand some people's comments here on the forum. I had tested both at home extensively and stayed with the FCXS instead of changing to the HC2. But whatever reservations I may have had regarding the usage of these PSUs with those two amps, with the 282 it was at an entirely different level. I then decided to connect another SNAIC cable to power the second analogue section of the 282 and although the impact it made was not as substantial as the first one, it was still clearly audible. I have said this before when comparing the effect of the FCXS with that of the HC2 on the SuperNait, and this experience has reinforced my view, the FCXS may just be the best VFM upgrade within the Naim hierarchy of PSUs and it quite possibly does not receive the recognition it deserves. It would be interesting to hear how it compares to a HC2 or even a SC on the 282.

 

Last but not least I would like to share some thoughts and emotions. On occasions I have been quite outspoken against upgrades in general and the all too free recommendation of them here on the forum. My often critical response was driven by a genuine belief that spending your money on yet more and better hifi equipment is not going to make anyone happy. In some ways I thought all this was quite simply an obscene indulgence that bears no justification whatsoever, while all along I slowly but surely tweaked my system here and there to the level it is at today. My reservations still remain but for the first time I can honestly say that this upgrade has made me think about whether I might not have been a bit too harsh on you folks and myself. At the end of the day everyone will have made similar experiences at one time or another, at one level or another. Who am I to know where that level is at? The bug has bitten, I am already dreaming of a 250! 

 

 

Thanks

tp

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by catalinmetal
Originally Posted by Richard Dane:

Cat, all well and good as far as it goes but you miss out so much that you cannot see.  You would do so if you went to visit the factory.

 

The LM317 is a good regulator so I'm told, however it really comes into its own when critically selected and matched.  This is excatly what Naim do, and if you visited the factory you would see the LM317s being individually selected and then matched on custom jigs.  Not that many make the grade, those that do, are no longer components costing less than a dollar.  The cost and time to select and match, as well as the cost of discarding so many that don't meet Naim's specific criteria, means that it becomes very much more expensive.

 

I believe that the DIY PSU fraternity have acknowledged that the cost to do this on a small scale is prohibitive and then what are the criteria??  So, acknowledged that if trying to design an LM317 regulated supply, Naim will almost always win out, hence perhaps the desire to choose another path.  A path not necessarily better, and indeed, usually just different.  Naim stick with the LM317 for good reason.  It always just seems to work better than other alternatives they have tried

 

p.s. Please stick to forum rules in your posts. At least one of the companies you mentioned has made very clear they will take firm action if their company name is mentioned on here.

 

p.p.s No bull or subliminal method required.  Naim have always said "trust your ears".  If a Supercap doesn't do it over a Hicap then save yourself the cash.  Only problem is, it just does....

sorry, Richard, i have realised i have missed the process of component selection in my scenario...

ideed, you have enlightened me with some things here, and i have to say that, if i wouldn't have posted my mesages here on the forum, i would have never learned how the actual process of developing some item really goes...

 

i agree that sometimes my postings to "ressurect" interesting and useful answers were a bit aggressive, but i really want to learn about the things sorrounding me, to me is never really enough the "it sounds better", cause i have to know in equal measure WHY it does...

 

indeed there is a perceived difference between FC and SC, i have felt it, and now i do understand that what i have presumed so far that regulators from a FC are the same for a SC, is indeed a wrong assumtion, and i thank you once again for clearing this up for me...

 

it is true that in DIY regime, many of the actions and steps performed by a larger manufacturer are not included in developing one item, cause one man cannot simply assume the time nd resources to test components for quality, i guess.

 

there goes my other assumtion that LM317 is not that good for what it does, but the usual experience was about the retail stock items available, which cost that little, and probably worth the same... i'm thinking to understand now wht the higher cost of the hicap and supercap, at least from one side of things.

 

as i told you, your replies were always very useful for me, and made me change and correct some of the theories i had before, so i guess it is a good thing. also, i would like to inform you that i criticise only the things that i think are worth criticised, so are actually good enough to be noticed, if something is bad indeed, i do not bother at all... i might had some incorrect information posts in the past about Naim items, but i am learning, and to me this is important. so thanks again!

 

PS: sorry, i didn't know about some third party which avoids being mentioned on the forum... but i do realise now that a smaller company cannot afford to pay to test and select individual components in the manner that a larger company as Naim does. 

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by catalinmetal
Originally Posted by Gale 401:

tp,

Enjoy your new bits of kit man.

 

I just wish catmental would stop thread crapping with his thoughts?? when anyone mentions Naim psu's.

G.

 

it is not crap, Gale, it was just a wrong assumtion based on incomplete informations...

but this is how we learn, how we evolve...

i'm sorry if you took it a bit personally...

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by catalinmetal
Originally Posted by Engelbert:

Hi John,

 

I started with 5i-2 then XS then I add a flatcap2x. The naim journey had been really amazing and enjoyable hmmmmm......supercap2 with supernait perhaps

 

Thanks

 

Chun wei

But a Supercap2 on a NAC202 or NAC282 is even better 

 

Engelbert

i have to agree to Engelbert here, the Supercap on the 202 is something very, very interesting...

myself for once, on the technical side, i was trying to minimise the exchange for adding the SC to 202, but my girlfriend told me from the first songs that we should buy it... women, they have some kind of a sixth sense i guess... and when i realise now that i replied to her " no way i'm gonna spend that money for another box with 317 inside, it cannot be that worthy"...

i sometimes think that she was more right that i was...

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by chun wei
Originally Posted by catalinmetal:
Originally Posted by Engelbert:

Hi John,

 

I started with 5i-2 then XS then I add a flatcap2x. The naim journey had been really amazing and enjoyable hmmmmm......supercap2 with supernait perhaps

 

Thanks

 

Chun wei

But a Supercap2 on a NAC202 or NAC282 is even better 

 

Engelbert

i have to agree to Engelbert here, the Supercap on the 202 is something very, very interesting...

myself for once, on the technical side, i was trying to minimise the exchange for adding the SC to 202, but my girlfriend told me from the first songs that we should buy it... women, they have some kind of a sixth sense i guess... and when i realise now that i replied to her " no way i'm gonna spend that money for another box with 317 inside, it cannot be that worthy"...

i sometimes think that she was more right that i was...

Hi Cat,

 

He! he!  my mum took control of my xs when I add on the flatcap2x, the whole day, I didn't even had a chance to listen to it, just imagine if were to upgrade to supercap with 202 most probaly she will kidnap them

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by Salmon Dave
Originally Posted by Pedro:

The beauty of the 282 is the flexibility it provides on the PSUs.

On the other hand, the bare 282/200 has a particularly pure sound which introducing a PSU slightly removes.

One of the most captivating sounds I've heard in the past 10 years at a hifi show (yes, it's possible), was Bristol a few years ago, where the Spendor guys had just a CDX2/282/200 driving the S9e (I think it was). It was one of the very rare times when I couldn't really be bothered to get up and explore the other rooms - the Buena Vista Social Club were right there....

So - have a good listen first. Of course, I've long ago gone down the PSU route

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by sheffieldgraham
Originally Posted by Salmon Dave:
Originally Posted by Pedro:

The beauty of the 282 is the flexibility it provides on the PSUs.

On the other hand, the bare 282/200 has a particularly pure sound which introducing a PSU slightly removes.

One of the most captivating sounds I've heard in the past 10 years at a hifi show (yes, it's possible), was Bristol a few years ago, where the Spendor guys had just a CDX2/282/200 driving the S9e (I think it was). It was one of the very rare times when I couldn't really be bothered to get up and explore the other rooms - the Buena Vista Social Club were right there....

So - have a good listen first. Of course, I've long ago gone down the PSU route

Salmon,

Your last comment seems to fly in the face of your first.  What factors eventually took you down the PSU upgrade route? What was the route?

 

Regards,

                   Graham

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by Salmon Dave
Originally Posted by sheffieldgraham:

Your last comment seems to fly in the face of your first.  What factors eventually took you down the PSU upgrade route? What was the route?

 

'Seems, madam?...I know not seems...' (Hamlet Act 1 sc 2)

 

I've been using a 252 since 2004 (give or take) - which needs a Supercap. As far as the 282 is concerned, there are certainly great benefits from adding one or two Hicaps - though unlike some I wasn't entirely convinced by the move from 2 Hicaps to a Supercap - but as I was trying to convey the 282/200 on its own has a special quality which some may like, or prefer.

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by Michel Werner

I recently auditioned a 282/250+HiCap vs 202/200+HiCap because I wanted to replace my 102/180+HiCap gear. The 202/200+HiCap was used as a proxy for my current setup. The difference is important to say the least. The level of details one gets from the 282/250 is really impressive even though the 202/200 is already very good. The bass is definitively in another department and the dynamics (most probably courtesy of the 250) is not matched by the less expensive setup (I do not dare to say cheap). It is the first time I felt that recorded music approaches live music. I guess these impressions match the ones of many others.

 

I have ordered both the 282 and 250 and expect them to arrive this or next week. I will probably post about my impressions listening to the new boxes at home.

 

Best,

 

Michel

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by totemphile

Congratulations Michel, I am sure you'll enjoy every minute of listening to your new combo. I have only listened to a 282/250 once and very briefly, so cannot compare it in a meaningful way to the 282/200 but I am sure it'll rock your boat. A 250 might be on the cards long term to replace the 200 but for now and a good while yet the 200 is and will be doing a very fine job indeed. I would want to compare the different sonic characters of the two first before deciding on whether to change at all.

 

Best

tp

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by totemphile
Originally Posted by Tony Russell:

Look, all you scientific types are making it far too compicated.

 

Just look at the product names:

 

Flat(cap), Hi(cap) and Super(cap).

 

Very easy to see a heirarchy and which is best :-)

 

Quite the opposite Tony, it's simplifications like the one stated above that are of little use. No offence but regurgitating the Naim marketing line is not good enough and doesn't help anyone much either. All too often on this forum people are simply throwing in some loose comments based on what everyone else keeps saying or experiences they have made with a certain product in another context, rather than differentiating where differentiation might be sensible.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying what you say is not true, it might be. Sure the HC2 makes a big difference on the 282 and is a good choice whatever way you look at it. But the question I raised was whether a single HC2 would make a substantial difference over and above the FCXS as used by me in my system, i.e. with two SNAICs from the FCXS to the 282. As I have mentioned before I demoed the HC2 vs. FCXS in a CDX2.2/SN context and to my ears it did not outperform the FCXS there and then. So what I am saying is unless you have auditioned both on the 282, I personally think it is better not to claim anything and leave the question open until it can be answered by someone who has heard both.

 

Just my 2 pence.

 

Best

tp


Posted on: 19 May 2011 by Tony Russell

Oh dear, sense of humour failure...

 

 

To your very serious question: Yes, hicap is much better than flatcap. 

 

p.s. Chill out and enjoy your 282 for a while before stressing about upgrades.

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by totemphile

Completely chilled

 

All I was trying to get across is that it's helpful to be precise. It seems to me that quite a few here on the forum base their decisions regarding what to buy or not to buy on what's been written by other people. So with that in mind I simply feel it's more helpful to avoid generalisations. Yes, generally a HC2 is better than a FCXS but not in all cases. Whether it is in the context of this set up we still haven't answered, even though you maintain that a HC2 is better without having made the comparison yourself. That's all...

 

Btw, maybe you only read half of this thread but I am not worrying about upgrades at all, I already have a FCXS at home and am very happy with what it does. I also compared the FCXS against a HC2 in my home on the SuperNait I previously owned and based on my findings there the thought of swapping my FCXS for a HC2 hasn't even entered my mind. I am too busy enjoying the current set up, which is near perfect to me

 

Thanks

tp

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by arch7
Totemphile: I too use the 282/200 ( I added the SC recently) with Totems. I use the One's. There's a great synergy there. This time of year I listen less but enjoy it more because every time I play something I'm reminded of how good the system is and have more of those focused listening sessions. When I listen daily, my brain gets used to it or something, so a break is good for appreciation. Like you said, you like big upgrades. I'd skip the HCs and go for the SC if you find a good deal. Cheers!
Posted on: 19 May 2011 by Pedro
Originally Posted by Michel Werner:

I recently auditioned a 282/250+HiCap vs 202/200+HiCap because I wanted to replace my 102/180+HiCap gear. The 202/200+HiCap was used as a proxy for my current setup. The difference is important to say the least. The level of details one gets from the 282/250 is really impressive even though the 202/200 is already very good. The bass is definitively in another department and the dynamics (most probably courtesy of the 250) is not matched by the less expensive setup (I do not dare to say cheap). It is the first time I felt that recorded music approaches live music. I guess these impressions match the ones of many others.

 

I have ordered both the 282 and 250 and expect them to arrive this or next week. I will probably post about my impressions listening to the new boxes at home.

 

Best,

 

Michel

Michel

 

The 282 with 250 is a great pairing. As you say you've ordered them, I assume they're new. Give them time to burn in (likely to be a couple of weeks before they start to settle, but will continue to improve well beyond that timeframe).

 

Good luck

 

Pete

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by Michel Werner
Tp and Pedro,







Thank you for your congratulations. I will definitively let the new gear settle before making any conclusion. I may try to look at what the HiCap (recent, it is version 2) does to the system. The system will probably stay like that for some time. My current system dates back from 2005. I am thus not a furious upgrader. A possible change might be the addition of a supercap within a year if I can audition it and be convinced that it is worthwhile.







Best,







Michel
Posted on: 19 May 2011 by Tony Russell
Originally Posted by totemphile:

 

All I was trying to get across is that it's helpful to be precise. It seems to me that quite a few here on the forum base their decisions regarding what to buy or not to buy on what's been written by other people. So with that in mind I simply feel it's more helpful to avoid generalisations. 

 

That's some generalisation you have just made up there yourself! 

 

Hicap is better than Flatcap. Could not be more precise.

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by totemphile

More like a fact... don't know what forum you are on or what threads you are reading...

 

I give up, HC2 is always better than FCXS, you are right, it's bigger, it costs more and as you have suggested you just need to look at the Naim product marketing material. No need to listen for yourself or make up your own mind, HC2 wins in all situations, under all circumstances, in all systems, with all Naim gear, no matter which one or what combination, or who is listening.... there you go.

 

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you demoed a HC2 vs. FCXS on a SuperNait or a FCXS, using both power outs, vs. a single HC2 on a 282/200?

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by Tony Russell

Hey fella, keep your shirt on. I was only trying to help by chipping in with my experience. 

 

Best you listen to yourself as you are clearly a bit paranoid....

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by totemphile

I am all dressed, don't worry.

 

As for the paranoid part, not sure where you get that impression from, seems to me you misunderstood my posts, you probably never read through the whole thread anyway otherwise your responses would have been different. I never asked for any advice, I am not even thinking about upgrading, so as far as I am concerned it makes no difference which is better or which isn't. I merely asked a rhetorical question. That aside I was trying to make the point that no one is helped on this forum by making categorical statements as scenarios do differ and so do the results, many variables mean there is not always just one single outcome. But either you are too stubborn to see my point or are simply not willing to contribute beyond your one liners. Your first contribution was actually the most valuable:

 

"I found a single Hicap made a real improvement to my 82. Dont rule it out."

 

Well qualified and no generalising there. Maybe we should leave it at that.

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by Tony Russell

Good luck.

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by totemphile

Ditto, with your HC on your 82

Posted on: 19 May 2011 by imaginator
Originally Posted by Pedro:

 

The 282 with 250 is a great pairing. As you say you've ordered them, I assume they're new. Give them time to burn in (likely to be a couple of weeks before they start to settle, but will continue to improve well beyond that timeframe).

 

Good luck

 

Pete

 

I replaced my SUPERNAIT with NAC282 / NAP250 / 2 last February and I must say that at first with these new products I could not find the sound that had made me decide to upgrade my system when I had listened to a demo model of these appliances in my home with my dealer.

However now that the system has been running for a few months, I can tell that the sound quality has really improved.

Every day the sound  is better than the day before.

 

cheers

 

 

Imaginator

 

Posted on: 20 May 2011 by Tony Russell
Originally Posted by imaginator:
Originally Posted by Pedro:

 

The 282 with 250 is a great pairing. As you say you've ordered them, I assume they're new. Give them time to burn in (likely to be a couple of weeks before they start to settle, but will continue to improve well beyond that timeframe).

 

Good luck

 

Pete

 

I replaced my SUPERNAIT with NAC282 / NAP250 / 2 last February and I must say that at first with these new products I could not find the sound that had made me decide to upgrade my system when I had listened to a demo model of these appliances in my home with my dealer.

However now that the system has been running for a few months, I can tell that the sound quality has really improved.

Every day the sound  is better than the day before.

 

cheers

 

 

Imaginator

 

Its a great system Imaginator. I did a supernait/282/250 comparison last summber and its quite a step up in performance. What source are you using?

Posted on: 20 May 2011 by imaginator

Its a great system Imaginator. I did a supernait/282/250 comparison last summber and its quite a step up in performance. What source are you using?

 

 

 


... My source is HDX + N-DAC + XPS/2  +  2 Powerlines on Dac, a DC1 and Hi-line.
I'd like to upgrade XPS/2 to 555PS... Maybe the cost is too much compared to the end result.

Bye

 

Imaginator

Posted on: 20 May 2011 by totemphile
Originally Posted by arch7:
Totemphile: I too use the 282/200 ( I added the SC recently) with Totems. I use the One's. There's a great synergy there. This time of year I listen less but enjoy it more because every time I play something I'm reminded of how good the system is and have more of those focused listening sessions. When I listen daily, my brain gets used to it or something, so a break is good for appreciation. Like you said, you like big upgrades. I'd skip the HCs and go for the SC if you find a good deal. Cheers!

Nice! Did you run the 282/200 bare before adding a SC? When I set up my system I first listened to the 282/200 on its own, it was a huge step up from the SuperNait and I was already completely overwhelmed there and then. However, after connecting the FCXS, I simply could not go back to the bare 282/200, it really made a huge difference, as if someone had turned up the volume knob by another half hour or more, but not only that, better separation, wider sound stage, more energy, the usual stuff, in a very balanced way though and by no means too overpowering or changing the character of the musical presentation. I have not heard a HC2 on the 282 or a SC but am really very content with the current set up, no urge what so ever to change anything, it is all very balanced and I think that's so important. All I will do is add the nDAC to my current set up, which should open things up nicely. I have thought about the SC of course and might go there long term but not this year, maybe next. So how would you describe the experience of adding a SC to your 282? Btw, how do you like The One, do they work well at the end of your 282/200?