LP 12 - how level ?

Thanks for the suggestion Charlie. I found the glass and balls on the shelf sounded better than the carbon crosses. The Audiotech has four points but I have three cups and balls under the glass. This, along with rubber washers between the shelf and wall on the mounts gives plenty of isolation and is the best solution for me.

Steve J, thanks for sharing your experience.

Charlie

I have seen some little bubble levels on ebay that sit on the headshell, one I saw was pictured on a Naim Aro. Seems like a good idea, anyone tried these?

CharlieP posted:

Dektop and steve j,

If you feel like experimenting, I suggest you try replacing the upward facing spikes (under the wood shelf) with dome nuts.  You may need to use short studs, of the same thread as the spikes, with dome nuts firm against the rack below and dome facing upward to wood shelf.  In my experience a sharp point into wood makes for a slightly "grungy" mechanical interface, and which can degrade over time.  The dome or ball usually sounds better.  I cannot say if this would improve on the carbon "X" inserts - which address the same problem.

Using the four support points is problematic, as has been mentioned.  Domes or balls may be more difficult to adjust perfectly than are the points.  My best experiences have been using three supports, not four.

Another interesting experiment would be to try Naim Chips over the points, in the same roll as the carbon "X's" in Steve J's photo.  This business is tricky, and you must of course trust your ears.

Cheers,

Charlie

 

I have tried 'refreshing' the holes pierced into the platform by the Audiotech Spikes using a small cross-head screwdriver and then tipping out the debris. This has made a substantial difference to SQ. 

dektop100 posted:

CharlieP posted:

Dektop and steve j,

If you feel like experimenting, I suggest you try replacing the upward facing spikes (under the wood shelf) with dome nuts.  You may need to use short studs, of the same thread as the spikes, with dome nuts firm against the rack below and dome facing upward to wood shelf.  In my experience a sharp point into wood makes for a slightly "grungy" mechanical interface, and which can degrade over time.  The dome or ball usually sounds better.  I cannot say if this would improve on the carbon "X" inserts - which address the same problem.

Using the four support points is problematic, as has been mentioned.  Domes or balls may be more difficult to adjust perfectly than are the points.  My best experiences have been using three supports, not four.

Another interesting experiment would be to try Naim Chips over the points, in the same roll as the carbon "X's" in Steve J's photo.  This business is tricky, and you must of course trust your ears.

Cheers,

Charlie

 

I have tried 'refreshing' the holes pierced into the platform by the Audiotech Spikes using a small cross-head screwdriver and then tipping out the debris. This has made a substantial difference to SQ. 

 

 

Good news!

When levelling, do you level the plinth or the platter ?  

When at rest (not spinning), with a perfectly level plinth (top plate / wood frame), the platter on mine is slightly out of level. This is measured with a small, almost weightless level, so it's not the weight of the level that's affecting this.  Anyone else seen this anomaly ?

rjstaines posted:

When levelling, do you level the plinth or the platter ?  

When at rest (not spinning), with a perfectly level plinth (top plate / wood frame), the platter on mine is slightly out of level. This is measured with a small, almost weightless level, so it's not the weight of the level that's affecting this.  Anyone else seen this anomaly ?

Per my post a couple of weeks back, I've seen this anomaly after every single rebuild. I used to believe that levelling the platter was the more important, considering how any errors get magnified by centrifugal force, but I've been persuaded that having a level plinth should take precedence.

It also occurred to me that ~1.7 grams of weight pressing on one side of the plinth, and varying in effective downforce as the arm moves inwards across the record, makes a bit of a mockery of critically levelling the platter. So unless the platter is way off (and it's never been that bad), I level the plinth and leave it at that.

Colm

Thanks Corry, that's reassuring.

I disagree. I think the platter should be perfectly level and the good thing about the Aro is that it can be matched perfectly to the platter, whereas the Ekos is fixed. As long as the cartridge and platter are perfectly matched and level, the rest of the chasis is largely irrelevant, as there's nothing you can do about it anyway. The suspension is not being used in movement, but only there to isolate the arm/platter from vibration. 

Many replies have suggested that the LP 12 is relatively insensitive to a lack of exact levelness - though I think few have tested their theories. From recent maintenance work of the spiked-formed holes in the underside of the Audiotech platform my LP12 rests on, followed by careful listening tests, I am convinced that the quality of the spike/support interface is quite influential on SQ. At the moment, levelness measures 'well' with my better spirit level. If I have an idle hour or so I could try changing level slightly to hear if this made a difference. I think theory can only go so far.

dektop100 posted:

Many replies have suggested that the LP 12 is relatively insensitive to a lack of exact levelness - though I think few have tested their theories. From recent maintenance work of the spiked-formed holes in the underside of the Audiotech platform my LP12 rests on, followed by careful listening tests, I am convinced that the quality of the spike/support interface is quite influential on SQ. At the moment, levelness measures 'well' with my better spirit level. If I have an idle hour or so I could try changing level slightly to hear if this made a difference. I think theory can only go so far.

 

Good that you reported the results.  Do you have any photos?  I think this topic could be of interest to many.  There is an older thread where I reported changing points for domes under the shelves of my rack, and the sonic improvement was not subtle.  It is essential that support shelving vibration be highly linear - and when the points dig into wood (or similar materials) they form a "grungy" mechanical interface which becomes progressively more not linear.

Charlie

ricsimas posted:

The deck is not that sensitive to minute differences in level - if that was the case, differences in record weight would make a much bigger difference.

In terms of set up, starting with a plinth that is true (if out of square, it should be replaced), one levels the armboard with the plinth - this should ensure that platter and armboard are level.

However, once you put a record on the platter, this system deflects towards that direction (you can observe this by looking at the now slight difference in armboard vs. plinth cutout level).

Ricardo's reply above is the closest description to what I aim for. However, you really want the plinth as level as is practically possible. The suspension and hence the platter then should also be as level as possible. Particularly with the Aro. If one does not agree with the other, something is "out". Check the set-up with your retailer. IME when I see issues, this is normally the plinth as it's made from wood and an move a little. If significant, then a plinth change as Ricardo mentions is the best course of action. 

Anyway, I'll get to see how good a job Ricardo has done in a few weeks when I visit

Kind regards,

Peter

Oh my goodness, all this talk about level accuracy, so you can bung on a probably slightly warped variable thickness disc of plastic!  At the risk of inflaming LP12 lovers everywhere, or at least on here, do you really think it should be that fussy?  Perhaps It should be more tolerant and vinyl friendly...?

I am still using my 1983 Ariston RD40.  It has a purposely dished platter, so I have to level it across the edges in three directions (dictated by the position of the three feet).  Lately I've also been using the iPhone in level mode, laid on its back on top of the record clamp, the platter is apparently level as I rotate it if I assume the clamp top is perpendicular to the spindle axis, which is good enough when I check it with the spirit level.  But as far as I can tell the sound doesn't go out the door if it's off by a degree.  And I see that as a positive not an argument for moving to the other Ariston ;-)

"Oh my goodness, all this talk about level accuracy, so you can bung on a probably slightly warped variable thickness disc of plastic!  At the risk of inflaming LP12 lovers everywhere, or at least on here, do you really think it should be that fussy?  Perhaps It should be more tolerant and vinyl friendly...?"

I think the train of posts are rather more finely nuanced than that. Starting with an initial assumption that careful/fortunate levelling had substantially changed SQ to the more likely effects of spike/support interface and the difficulties of getting 4 points co-planar. Others have mentioned plinth trueness, even fewer the tolerances that are permissible in overall level - with a suggestion that with the ARO this more critical than a typical gimbal arm. I have found the LP 12 to be very sensitive to it's support and the multitude of responses received have suggested possible reasons for this, and helped in improving my installation.