Murder. Not Dangerous Driving. Not reckless driving etc etc . Murder.

Its not an argument for increasing speed limits, but the British do have a thing about prosecuting speeding while ignoring driving which is more dangerous or potentially cause others to act in a dangerous manner...  Tailgating, weaving between lanes, driving too slowly, driving slower than traffic in the outside lane, lorries overtaking other lorries on inclines etc. and some of this behaviour can be the result of other behaviour.

Of course the reason for this is speeding is an absolute and therefore can be monitored and prosecuted without actually needing someone there ("safety" cameras).

Eloise

Don Atkinson posted:

Bananahead posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Bananahead posted:

If you want to increase your own safety then buy a better car. Or use different roads. Or don't drive.

So you suggest I should buy a different car, avoid roads on which you and those like you choose to race along, or simply give up driving altogether? To accommodate your wish to drive faster? I'm not sure it is me who has a strange view of this. Actually, your view isn't strange at all. It's simply arrogant and selfish.

Except that I didn't suggest that.

I suggested that today you have a choice.

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Winky,

I don't recall bananahead stating that he would like to drive at 180 for thrills. Where did this come from ?

 

 

No, to be fair he hasn't said why he wants to drive at that speed. Maybe he's just in a hurry. There does seem to be something about getting behind the wheel that makes people impatient.

Man's natural way of getting from A to B is on foot.

Our anscecters domesticated horses which allowed us to travel further and faster.

Even bicycles(*) and trains were designed with both speed and distance in mind, together with less effort than walking.

Cars are no different. Its nothing to do with impatience. Its convenience and practicality. (*) I presume that's why you cycle from N Vancouver and down Robson each day rather than walk - nothing to do with impatience ?

It has everything to do with impatience. Unless it is for a thrill, what other reason is there for wanting to do 180 on a public road?

Impatience would also be the guy that overtook a line of three cars (and me) on a narrow blind uphill curve on a wet road tonight. Horn blaring the whole way. Riding my bicycle doesn't count as impatience.

Winky,

There are exceptions to everything.

Driving a car at 30mph in town isn't per se impatience. Its convenience and practicality.

Ditto 70mph on a motorway when the conditions allow. Or 80mph or even 112mph.

Last night I walked home from town, about 3.5 miles along the canal towpath. I lost count of the number of impatient, aggressive cyclists who rang their bells and expected me to move aside so that they could pass without delay ! That definitely was impatience. But generally, cyclists are no more impatient than motorists, and motorists per se are not impatient. Some are. but just because they drive a car, does not necessarily make them impatient or aggressive.

Motorists' impatience is the rule, not the exception. They break the speed limit pretty-much constantly and universally when possible i.e. when not being impeded by other motorists or by corners and intersections. I observe a correlation between motoring and impatience, even in myself.

Being a pedestrian on a shared use path gives you some idea what it is like to be a cyclist on the road. But one big difference is that cyclists' impatience on a towpath is highly unlikely to kill anyone. The "solution" on the roads is to insist that cyclists to hug the edge of the road and simply try to stay out of the way. I can't imagine a similar rule requiring pedestrians to walk single file on the edge of the towpath to allow cyclists unimpeded access would get much support. And nor should it.

(For the record, I avoid shared-use paths wherever possible and when I do use them I never expect pedestrians to yield to me. I wait patiently until it is safe to pass. I don't, and never will have/use a bell. I consider their use to be analagous to a motorist just blasting their horn, demanding that others yield to their superiority)

Bananahead posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Bananahead posted:

If you want to increase your own safety then buy a better car. Or use different roads. Or don't drive.

So you suggest I should buy a different car, avoid roads on which you and those like you choose to race along, or simply give up driving altogether? To accommodate your wish to drive faster? I'm not sure it is me who has a strange view of this. Actually, your view isn't strange at all. It's simply arrogant and selfish.

Except that I didn't suggest that.

I suggested that today you have a choice.

What's the difference? You offered it to me as possible solution, a suggestion, if you will.

As a cyclist . Most situations that present a potential accident from an other driver of a car or vehicle is when turning off into another junction . Often at speeds less than 2 -5 mph. Wanting to make haste into destination can lead some drivers into narrow vision on objectives.

Eloise posted:

Its not an argument for increasing speed limits, but the British do have a thing about prosecuting speeding while ignoring driving which is more dangerous or potentially cause others to act in a dangerous manner...  Tailgating, weaving between lanes, driving too slowly, driving slower than traffic in the outside lane, lorries overtaking other lorries on inclines etc. and some of this behaviour can be the result of other behaviour.

Of course the reason for this is speeding is an absolute and therefore can be monitored and prosecuted without actually needing someone there ("safety" cameras).

Eloise

That's all very true, i particularly hate tailgating, it happens around here on almost every drive. Even worse in the dark hours and getting bright dazzling lights too close-up in the mirrors. 

Too many are still using hand held mobile phones while driving, that's very dangerous too.

Debs

winkyincanada posted:

Bananahead posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Bananahead posted:

If you want to increase your own safety then buy a better car. Or use different roads. Or don't drive.

So you suggest I should buy a different car, avoid roads on which you and those like you choose to race along, or simply give up driving altogether? To accommodate your wish to drive faster? I'm not sure it is me who has a strange view of this. Actually, your view isn't strange at all. It's simply arrogant and selfish.

Except that I didn't suggest that.

I suggested that today you have a choice.

What's the difference? You offered it to me as possible solution, a suggestion, if you will.

The difference is that you attempted to twist what I suggested into something to suit your own weird agenda.

Bananahead posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Bananahead posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Bananahead posted:

If you want to increase your own safety then buy a better car. Or use different roads. Or don't drive.

So you suggest I should buy a different car, avoid roads on which you and those like you choose to race along, or simply give up driving altogether? To accommodate your wish to drive faster? I'm not sure it is me who has a strange view of this. Actually, your view isn't strange at all. It's simply arrogant and selfish.

Except that I didn't suggest that.

I suggested that today you have a choice.

What's the difference? You offered it to me as possible solution, a suggestion, if you will.

The difference is that you attempted to twist what I suggested into something to suit your own weird agenda.

Well, we're going to have to disagree on whether "If you want to increase your own safety then buy a better car. Or use different roads. Or don't drive." is a suggestion or not. Semantics. Doesn't matter one way or the other. I still think it is fairly arrogant to infer that an appropriate response to your desire to drive at up to 180 kmh (for whatever reason) is for me to remove myself from the road or to buy a different car.

Don Atkinson posted:

I presume that's why you cycle from N Vancouver and down Robson each day rather than walk - nothing to do with impatience ?

Walking would be quite impractical as it would take about 4 hours each way. I do take the quiet scenic route through the park every day though, adding about 8km to my journey for the day. So I guess I'm not all that impatient. I just leave home early enough. Simple.

But yes, impatience isn't restricted to our time behind the wheel. I get impatient in all sorts of circumstances. Most of us do. But for the vast majority of us (with a few near-trivial exceptions) impatience while driving is the only sort that will kill our family, friends, bystanders and ourselves. 

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I presume that's why you cycle from N Vancouver and down Robson each day rather than walk - nothing to do with impatience ?

Walking would be quite impractical as it would take about 4 hours each way. I do take the quiet scenic route through the park every day though, adding about 8km to my journey for the day. So I guess I'm not all that impatient. I just leave home early enough. Simple.

But yes, impatience isn't restricted to our time behind the wheel. I get impatient in all sorts of circumstances. Most of us do. But for the vast majority of us (with a few near-trivial exceptions) impatience while driving is the only sort that will kill our family, friends, bystanders and ourselves. 

Winky,

When you say "walking would be quite impractical.." I presume we are now in agreement. Whether you choose to use a horse, a bicycle or a car, is quite irrelevant. Your reason is practicality and convenience as I outlined above.

Impatience or otherwise is quite a separate issue. Like you, I leave home early and enjoy the drive to work. Ditto on the return.

Unlike yourself, I don't perceive every driver on the road as permanently impatient. Some, yes occasionally. But most, most of the time, not.

It's the same with cyclists (and motorcyclists). Their numbers are much smaller, so fewer impatient moments to be witnessed.

And the same goes for pedestrians. I've seen a few take a leap of faith to cross a busy road, but that doesn't entitle me to presume that all pedestrians, all of the time are impatient.

naim_nymph posted:

Eloise posted:

Its not an argument for increasing speed limits, but the British do have a thing about prosecuting speeding while ignoring driving which is more dangerous or potentially cause others to act in a dangerous manner...  Tailgating, weaving between lanes, driving too slowly, driving slower than traffic in the outside lane, lorries overtaking other lorries on inclines etc. and some of this behaviour can be the result of other behaviour.

Of course the reason for this is speeding is an absolute and therefore can be monitored and prosecuted without actually needing someone there ("safety" cameras).

Eloise

That's all very true, i particularly hate tailgating, it happens around here on almost every drive. Even worse in the dark hours and getting bright dazzling lights too close-up in the mirrors. 

Too many are still using hand held mobile phones while driving, that's very dangerous too.

Debs

Yes, IIRC tailgating is now illegal. So is using hand held phones. But as Eloise says, obtaining the evidence for a prosecution is more difficult than for speeding.

Perhaps if the punishment for tailgating and mobiles was more harsh, it would act as a deterrent ?

Don, i believe that in the interest of road safety, and accident prevention, it would be appropriate to have obligatory driving skill refresher courses every 10 years for every licence holder, and perhaps every 5 years for the over 70s.

The refresher course would be a useful session to inform drivers of new road signage, highway code changes, accident stats, and practical driving skills; to practice the adherence of speed limits, keeping distance from vehicle in front, observation, and other relative aspects of good driving practise. Basic health checks should be accessed too, especially eye sight, and reflexes, just to weed out the really hopeless cases.

I'm not suggesting these hypothetical driver refresher courses should be used to fail people [unless they are obviously so bad and a danger to themselves and other road users] but a once a decade fun learning afternoon to get back in touch with the responsibility of driving a motor vehicle and taking the upmost care on the public highway.

Debs

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I presume that's why you cycle from N Vancouver and down Robson each day rather than walk - nothing to do with impatience ?

Walking would be quite impractical as it would take about 4 hours each way. I do take the quiet scenic route through the park every day though, adding about 8km to my journey for the day. So I guess I'm not all that impatient. I just leave home early enough. Simple.

But yes, impatience isn't restricted to our time behind the wheel. I get impatient in all sorts of circumstances. Most of us do. But for the vast majority of us (with a few near-trivial exceptions) impatience while driving is the only sort that will kill our family, friends, bystanders and ourselves. 

Winky,

When you say "walking would be quite impractical.." I presume we are now in agreement. Whether you choose to use a horse, a bicycle or a car, is quite irrelevant. Your reason is practicality and convenience as I outlined above.

Impatience or otherwise is quite a separate issue. Like you, I leave home early and enjoy the drive to work. Ditto on the return.

Unlike yourself, I don't perceive every driver on the road as permanently impatient. Some, yes occasionally. But most, most of the time, not.

It's the same with cyclists (and motorcyclists). Their numbers are much smaller, so fewer impatient moments to be witnessed.

And the same goes for pedestrians. I've seen a few take a leap of faith to cross a busy road, but that doesn't entitle me to presume that all pedestrians, all of the time are impatient.

 

Driving on a motorway at 120 or 130 kmh is hardly "impractical" compared BH's request for 180 kmh limits, particularly considering the downside. There is something else going on in his desire for higher speeds. I've posited thrill-seeking or impatience. What would you think is driving his desire?

My perception of drivers is based on observation. They all run stops signs and they all speed, pretty much all the time. If not impatience, what do you think is "driving" this behaviour?

It's not so much the frequency of impatient behaviour that I have issue with, but as you say impatient motorists are a much more numerous than other classes of road user. It is the real consequence (death and injury) that is the real concern. A recent example with a potentially catastrophic outcome (to me) was a driver yesterday evening who chose to force me into the door-zone of a line of parked cars because they were seemingly unable to wait what would have literally been 2 seconds for the road ahead to be clear, and for me to be clear of the last parked car in the line. I'm not exaggerating about the 2 seconds. They jammed past me at the precise moment I was level with the rear door of the last parked car and as an oncoming vehicle was directly opposite. The road ahead was completely clear just 2 seconds later.

Debs, I don't disagree.

I have a medical every 6 months. Some sort of flying test every 6 months, a two-day teaching seminar every three years and a one-day teaching examination including briefings and flying every three years. In addition we voluntarily test each other at our flight school every six months.

Recreational pilots have a biennial training flight every two years.

None of these test are cheap, but they do seem to reduce accident frequency and severity and they also seem to improve the quality of flight teaching and output.

Perhaps your proposals are long over-due, rather than out of place.

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I presume that's why you cycle from N Vancouver and down Robson each day rather than walk - nothing to do with impatience ?

Walking would be quite impractical as it would take about 4 hours each way. I do take the quiet scenic route through the park every day though, adding about 8km to my journey for the day. So I guess I'm not all that impatient. I just leave home early enough. Simple.

But yes, impatience isn't restricted to our time behind the wheel. I get impatient in all sorts of circumstances. Most of us do. But for the vast majority of us (with a few near-trivial exceptions) impatience while driving is the only sort that will kill our family, friends, bystanders and ourselves. 

Winky,

When you say "walking would be quite impractical.." I presume we are now in agreement. Whether you choose to use a horse, a bicycle or a car, is quite irrelevant. Your reason is practicality and convenience as I outlined above.

Impatience or otherwise is quite a separate issue. Like you, I leave home early and enjoy the drive to work. Ditto on the return.

Unlike yourself, I don't perceive every driver on the road as permanently impatient. Some, yes occasionally. But most, most of the time, not.

It's the same with cyclists (and motorcyclists). Their numbers are much smaller, so fewer impatient moments to be witnessed.

And the same goes for pedestrians. I've seen a few take a leap of faith to cross a busy road, but that doesn't entitle me to presume that all pedestrians, all of the time are impatient.

 

Driving on a motorway at 120 or 130 kmh is hardly "impractical" compared BH's request for 180 kmh limits, particularly considering the downside. There is something else going on in his desire for higher speeds. I've posited thrill-seeking or impatience. What would you think is driving his desire? You will only get an answer to this this from Bananahead. I don't do guesses like this.

My perception of drivers is based on observation. They all run stops signs and they all speed, pretty much all the time. If not impatience, what do you think is "driving" this behaviour? My perception is likewise based on observation, both external and internal (ie as a passenger). I do not recognise "all" regarding stop signs, speed and much all the time. This means that I can't answer your derived question about what drives this behaviour. Sure, some people, some of the time - possibly due to impatience, possibly due to stress, possibly due to anger. same applies to cyclists v pedestrians, but again only some, some of the time, but based on my observations, a disproportionately high proportion of cyclists are guilty.

It's not so much the frequency of impatient behaviour that I have issue with, but as you say impatient motorists are a much more numerous than other classes of road user. It is the real consequence (death and injury) that is the real concern. A recent example with a potentially catastrophic outcome (to me) was a driver yesterday evening who chose to force me into the door-zone of a line of parked cars because they were seemingly unable to wait what would have literally been 2 seconds for the road ahead to be clear, and for me to be clear of the last parked car in the line. I'm not exaggerating about the 2 seconds. They jammed past me at the precise moment I was level with the rear door of the last parked car and as an oncoming vehicle was directly opposite. The road ahead was completely clear just 2 seconds later. As I said before, some drivers, some of the time. Not all drivers, all of the time. Ditto cyclists v pedestrians. Those who are guilty (motorists and cyclists) should be prosecuted and punished in accordance with the guidelines adopted by society.

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I presume that's why you cycle from N Vancouver and down Robson each day rather than walk - nothing to do with impatience ?

Walking would be quite impractical as it would take about 4 hours each way. I do take the quiet scenic route through the park every day though, adding about 8km to my journey for the day. So I guess I'm not all that impatient. I just leave home early enough. Simple.

But yes, impatience isn't restricted to our time behind the wheel. I get impatient in all sorts of circumstances. Most of us do. But for the vast majority of us (with a few near-trivial exceptions) impatience while driving is the only sort that will kill our family, friends, bystanders and ourselves. 

Winky,

When you say "walking would be quite impractical.." I presume we are now in agreement. Whether you choose to use a horse, a bicycle or a car, is quite irrelevant. Your reason is practicality and convenience as I outlined above.

Impatience or otherwise is quite a separate issue. Like you, I leave home early and enjoy the drive to work. Ditto on the return.

Unlike yourself, I don't perceive every driver on the road as permanently impatient. Some, yes occasionally. But most, most of the time, not.

It's the same with cyclists (and motorcyclists). Their numbers are much smaller, so fewer impatient moments to be witnessed.

And the same goes for pedestrians. I've seen a few take a leap of faith to cross a busy road, but that doesn't entitle me to presume that all pedestrians, all of the time are impatient.

 

Driving on a motorway at 120 or 130 kmh is hardly "impractical" compared BH's request for 180 kmh limits, particularly considering the downside. There is something else going on in his desire for higher speeds. I've posited thrill-seeking or impatience. What would you think is driving his desire? You will only get an answer to this this from Bananahead. I don't do guesses like this.

My perception of drivers is based on observation. They all run stops signs and they all speed, pretty much all the time. If not impatience, what do you think is "driving" this behaviour? My perception is likewise based on observation, both external and internal (ie as a passenger). I do not recognise "all" regarding stop signs, speed and much all the time. This means that I can't answer your derived question about what drives this behaviour. Sure, some people, some of the time - possibly due to impatience, possibly due to stress, possibly due to anger. same applies to cyclists v pedestrians, but again only some, some of the time, but based on my observations, a disproportionately high proportion of cyclists are guilty.

It's not so much the frequency of impatient behaviour that I have issue with, but as you say impatient motorists are a much more numerous than other classes of road user. It is the real consequence (death and injury) that is the real concern. A recent example with a potentially catastrophic outcome (to me) was a driver yesterday evening who chose to force me into the door-zone of a line of parked cars because they were seemingly unable to wait what would have literally been 2 seconds for the road ahead to be clear, and for me to be clear of the last parked car in the line. I'm not exaggerating about the 2 seconds. They jammed past me at the precise moment I was level with the rear door of the last parked car and as an oncoming vehicle was directly opposite. The road ahead was completely clear just 2 seconds later. As I said before, some drivers, some of the time. Not all drivers, all of the time. Ditto cyclists v pedestrians. Those who are guilty (motorists and cyclists) should be prosecuted and punished in accordance with the guidelines adopted by society.

 

If you don't think that the vast majority of motorists break the speed limit and roll through stop signs most of the time (when unimpeded) then you're not paying attention.

winkyincanada posted:

Bananahead posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Bananahead posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Bananahead posted:

If you want to increase your own safety then buy a better car. Or use different roads. Or don't drive.

So you suggest I should buy a different car, avoid roads on which you and those like you choose to race along, or simply give up driving altogether? To accommodate your wish to drive faster? I'm not sure it is me who has a strange view of this. Actually, your view isn't strange at all. It's simply arrogant and selfish.

Except that I didn't suggest that.

I suggested that today you have a choice.

What's the difference? You offered it to me as possible solution, a suggestion, if you will.

The difference is that you attempted to twist what I suggested into something to suit your own weird agenda.

Well, we're going to have to disagree on whether "If you want to increase your own safety then buy a better car. Or use different roads. Or don't drive." is a suggestion or not. Semantics. Doesn't matter one way or the other. I still think it is fairly arrogant to infer that an appropriate response to your desire to drive at up to 180 kmh (for whatever reason) is for me to remove myself from the road or to buy a different car.

Clearly it was a suggestion that if you want to improve your road safety then there are a number of things that you can do.

Your mistake is trying to link it to my other suggestion that, if the conditions allow, speed limits could be raised.

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I presume that's why you cycle from N Vancouver and down Robson each day rather than walk - nothing to do with impatience ?

Walking would be quite impractical as it would take about 4 hours each way. I do take the quiet scenic route through the park every day though, adding about 8km to my journey for the day. So I guess I'm not all that impatient. I just leave home early enough. Simple.

But yes, impatience isn't restricted to our time behind the wheel. I get impatient in all sorts of circumstances. Most of us do. But for the vast majority of us (with a few near-trivial exceptions) impatience while driving is the only sort that will kill our family, friends, bystanders and ourselves. 

Winky,

When you say "walking would be quite impractical.." I presume we are now in agreement. Whether you choose to use a horse, a bicycle or a car, is quite irrelevant. Your reason is practicality and convenience as I outlined above.

Impatience or otherwise is quite a separate issue. Like you, I leave home early and enjoy the drive to work. Ditto on the return.

Unlike yourself, I don't perceive every driver on the road as permanently impatient. Some, yes occasionally. But most, most of the time, not.

It's the same with cyclists (and motorcyclists). Their numbers are much smaller, so fewer impatient moments to be witnessed.

And the same goes for pedestrians. I've seen a few take a leap of faith to cross a busy road, but that doesn't entitle me to presume that all pedestrians, all of the time are impatient.

 

Driving on a motorway at 120 or 130 kmh is hardly "impractical" compared BH's request for 180 kmh limits, particularly considering the downside. There is something else going on in his desire for higher speeds. I've posited thrill-seeking or impatience. What would you think is driving his desire? You will only get an answer to this this from Bananahead. I don't do guesses like this.

My perception of drivers is based on observation. They all run stops signs and they all speed, pretty much all the time. If not impatience, what do you think is "driving" this behaviour? My perception is likewise based on observation, both external and internal (ie as a passenger). I do not recognise "all" regarding stop signs, speed and much all the time. This means that I can't answer your derived question about what drives this behaviour. Sure, some people, some of the time - possibly due to impatience, possibly due to stress, possibly due to anger. same applies to cyclists v pedestrians, but again only some, some of the time, but based on my observations, a disproportionately high proportion of cyclists are guilty.

It's not so much the frequency of impatient behaviour that I have issue with, but as you say impatient motorists are a much more numerous than other classes of road user. It is the real consequence (death and injury) that is the real concern. A recent example with a potentially catastrophic outcome (to me) was a driver yesterday evening who chose to force me into the door-zone of a line of parked cars because they were seemingly unable to wait what would have literally been 2 seconds for the road ahead to be clear, and for me to be clear of the last parked car in the line. I'm not exaggerating about the 2 seconds. They jammed past me at the precise moment I was level with the rear door of the last parked car and as an oncoming vehicle was directly opposite. The road ahead was completely clear just 2 seconds later. As I said before, some drivers, some of the time. Not all drivers, all of the time. Ditto cyclists v pedestrians. Those who are guilty (motorists and cyclists) should be prosecuted and punished in accordance with the guidelines adopted by society.

 

If you don't think that the vast majority of motorists break the speed limit and roll through stop signs most of the time (when unimpeded) then you're not paying attention.

Or maybe, simply, not deluded.

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I presume that's why you cycle from N Vancouver and down Robson each day rather than walk - nothing to do with impatience ?

Walking would be quite impractical as it would take about 4 hours each way. I do take the quiet scenic route through the park every day though, adding about 8km to my journey for the day. So I guess I'm not all that impatient. I just leave home early enough. Simple.

But yes, impatience isn't restricted to our time behind the wheel. I get impatient in all sorts of circumstances. Most of us do. But for the vast majority of us (with a few near-trivial exceptions) impatience while driving is the only sort that will kill our family, friends, bystanders and ourselves. 

Winky,

When you say "walking would be quite impractical.." I presume we are now in agreement. Whether you choose to use a horse, a bicycle or a car, is quite irrelevant. Your reason is practicality and convenience as I outlined above.

Impatience or otherwise is quite a separate issue. Like you, I leave home early and enjoy the drive to work. Ditto on the return.

Unlike yourself, I don't perceive every driver on the road as permanently impatient. Some, yes occasionally. But most, most of the time, not.

It's the same with cyclists (and motorcyclists). Their numbers are much smaller, so fewer impatient moments to be witnessed.

And the same goes for pedestrians. I've seen a few take a leap of faith to cross a busy road, but that doesn't entitle me to presume that all pedestrians, all of the time are impatient.

 

Driving on a motorway at 120 or 130 kmh is hardly "impractical" compared BH's request for 180 kmh limits, particularly considering the downside. There is something else going on in his desire for higher speeds. I've posited thrill-seeking or impatience. What would you think is driving his desire? You will only get an answer to this this from Bananahead. I don't do guesses like this.

My perception of drivers is based on observation. They all run stops signs and they all speed, pretty much all the time. If not impatience, what do you think is "driving" this behaviour? My perception is likewise based on observation, both external and internal (ie as a passenger). I do not recognise "all" regarding stop signs, speed and much all the time. This means that I can't answer your derived question about what drives this behaviour. Sure, some people, some of the time - possibly due to impatience, possibly due to stress, possibly due to anger. same applies to cyclists v pedestrians, but again only some, some of the time, but based on my observations, a disproportionately high proportion of cyclists are guilty.

It's not so much the frequency of impatient behaviour that I have issue with, but as you say impatient motorists are a much more numerous than other classes of road user. It is the real consequence (death and injury) that is the real concern. A recent example with a potentially catastrophic outcome (to me) was a driver yesterday evening who chose to force me into the door-zone of a line of parked cars because they were seemingly unable to wait what would have literally been 2 seconds for the road ahead to be clear, and for me to be clear of the last parked car in the line. I'm not exaggerating about the 2 seconds. They jammed past me at the precise moment I was level with the rear door of the last parked car and as an oncoming vehicle was directly opposite. The road ahead was completely clear just 2 seconds later. As I said before, some drivers, some of the time. Not all drivers, all of the time. Ditto cyclists v pedestrians. Those who are guilty (motorists and cyclists) should be prosecuted and punished in accordance with the guidelines adopted by society.

 

If you don't think that the vast majority of motorists break the speed limit and roll through stop signs most of the time (when unimpeded) then you're not paying attention.

Oh come on winky, I am paying attention. I think this is beginning to reveal a bias on your part.

Even in Vancouver, I haven't experienced the widespread abuse of speed limits and red-light jumping that you are reporting.

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I presume that's why you cycle from N Vancouver and down Robson each day rather than walk - nothing to do with impatience ?

Walking would be quite impractical as it would take about 4 hours each way. I do take the quiet scenic route through the park every day though, adding about 8km to my journey for the day. So I guess I'm not all that impatient. I just leave home early enough. Simple.

But yes, impatience isn't restricted to our time behind the wheel. I get impatient in all sorts of circumstances. Most of us do. But for the vast majority of us (with a few near-trivial exceptions) impatience while driving is the only sort that will kill our family, friends, bystanders and ourselves. 

Winky,

When you say "walking would be quite impractical.." I presume we are now in agreement. Whether you choose to use a horse, a bicycle or a car, is quite irrelevant. Your reason is practicality and convenience as I outlined above.

Impatience or otherwise is quite a separate issue. Like you, I leave home early and enjoy the drive to work. Ditto on the return.

Unlike yourself, I don't perceive every driver on the road as permanently impatient. Some, yes occasionally. But most, most of the time, not.

It's the same with cyclists (and motorcyclists). Their numbers are much smaller, so fewer impatient moments to be witnessed.

And the same goes for pedestrians. I've seen a few take a leap of faith to cross a busy road, but that doesn't entitle me to presume that all pedestrians, all of the time are impatient.

 

Driving on a motorway at 120 or 130 kmh is hardly "impractical" compared BH's request for 180 kmh limits, particularly considering the downside. There is something else going on in his desire for higher speeds. I've posited thrill-seeking or impatience. What would you think is driving his desire? You will only get an answer to this this from Bananahead. I don't do guesses like this.

My perception of drivers is based on observation. They all run stops signs and they all speed, pretty much all the time. If not impatience, what do you think is "driving" this behaviour? My perception is likewise based on observation, both external and internal (ie as a passenger). I do not recognise "all" regarding stop signs, speed and much all the time. This means that I can't answer your derived question about what drives this behaviour. Sure, some people, some of the time - possibly due to impatience, possibly due to stress, possibly due to anger. same applies to cyclists v pedestrians, but again only some, some of the time, but based on my observations, a disproportionately high proportion of cyclists are guilty.

It's not so much the frequency of impatient behaviour that I have issue with, but as you say impatient motorists are a much more numerous than other classes of road user. It is the real consequence (death and injury) that is the real concern. A recent example with a potentially catastrophic outcome (to me) was a driver yesterday evening who chose to force me into the door-zone of a line of parked cars because they were seemingly unable to wait what would have literally been 2 seconds for the road ahead to be clear, and for me to be clear of the last parked car in the line. I'm not exaggerating about the 2 seconds. They jammed past me at the precise moment I was level with the rear door of the last parked car and as an oncoming vehicle was directly opposite. The road ahead was completely clear just 2 seconds later. As I said before, some drivers, some of the time. Not all drivers, all of the time. Ditto cyclists v pedestrians. Those who are guilty (motorists and cyclists) should be prosecuted and punished in accordance with the guidelines adopted by society.

 

If you don't think that the vast majority of motorists break the speed limit and roll through stop signs most of the time (when unimpeded) then you're not paying attention.

Oh come on winky, I am paying attention. I think this is beginning to reveal a bias on your part.

Even in Vancouver, I haven't experienced the widespread abuse of speed limits and red-light jumping that you are reporting.

Next time you drive to Whistler, try sitting on the posted 90 kmh speed limit (60 through Lion's Bay) and observe the constant stream of vehicles overtaking you. Or come around Stanley park in the morning with me and watch the regular stream of rat-runners bypassing the city driving at 60 to 70 kmhin the 30kmh zone . Have a coffee outside La Crema coffee shop on Bellevue Ave in Ambleside and count the number of cars that voluntarily completely stop at the 4-way stop sign. Hint, you'll be finished your coffee before you see even one.

Somehow these threads always seem to turn into this.

But can I make a request? 

The nested quote-within-quote-within-quote things really make the forum totally and completely unmanageable on the small screen of a smart phone. This one has now got to the point of having the most deeply embedded quote appear as a vertical line of single characters (which perversely actually makes it fractionally easier to read).

If anyone feels the need to see the series of comments and counter comments that you are replying to (difficult to believe anyone would, though it may be) then all they need do is scroll up. Repeatedly. Which on a phone is now to risk screen, battery and finger simultaneously.

Drive safely!

I'm outraged.

There were roadworks on the autobahn this evening so they imposed a speed limit.

rodwsmith posted:

Somehow these threads always seem to turn into this.

But can I make a request? 

The nested quote-within-quote-within-quote things really make the forum totally and completely unmanageable on the small screen of a smart phone. This one has now got to the point of having the most deeply embedded quote appear as a vertical line of single characters (which perversely actually makes it fractionally easier to read).

If anyone feels the need to see the series of comments and counter comments that you are replying to (difficult to believe anyone would, though it may be) then all they need do is scroll up. Repeatedly. Which on a phone is now to risk screen, battery and finger simultaneously.

Drive safely!

Oh bugger, There I go again, nests within nests............ !

Sorry Rod, what I really meant was simply

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I presume that's why you cycle from N Vancouver and down Robson each day rather than walk - nothing to do with impatience ?

Walking would be quite impractical as it would take about 4 hours each way. I do take the quiet scenic route through the park every day though, adding about 8km to my journey for the day. So I guess I'm not all that impatient. I just leave home early enough. Simple.

But yes, impatience isn't restricted to our time behind the wheel. I get impatient in all sorts of circumstances. Most of us do. But for the vast majority of us (with a few near-trivial exceptions) impatience while driving is the only sort that will kill our family, friends, bystanders and ourselves. 

Winky,

When you say "walking would be quite impractical.." I presume we are now in agreement. Whether you choose to use a horse, a bicycle or a car, is quite irrelevant. Your reason is practicality and convenience as I outlined above.

Impatience or otherwise is quite a separate issue. Like you, I leave home early and enjoy the drive to work. Ditto on the return.

Unlike yourself, I don't perceive every driver on the road as permanently impatient. Some, yes occasionally. But most, most of the time, not.

It's the same with cyclists (and motorcyclists). Their numbers are much smaller, so fewer impatient moments to be witnessed.

And the same goes for pedestrians. I've seen a few take a leap of faith to cross a busy road, but that doesn't entitle me to presume that all pedestrians, all of the time are impatient.

 

Driving on a motorway at 120 or 130 kmh is hardly "impractical" compared BH's request for 180 kmh limits, particularly considering the downside. There is something else going on in his desire for higher speeds. I've posited thrill-seeking or impatience. What would you think is driving his desire? You will only get an answer to this this from Bananahead. I don't do guesses like this.

My perception of drivers is based on observation. They all run stops signs and they all speed, pretty much all the time. If not impatience, what do you think is "driving" this behaviour? My perception is likewise based on observation, both external and internal (ie as a passenger). I do not recognise "all" regarding stop signs, speed and much all the time. This means that I can't answer your derived question about what drives this behaviour. Sure, some people, some of the time - possibly due to impatience, possibly due to stress, possibly due to anger. same applies to cyclists v pedestrians, but again only some, some of the time, but based on my observations, a disproportionately high proportion of cyclists are guilty.

It's not so much the frequency of impatient behaviour that I have issue with, but as you say impatient motorists are a much more numerous than other classes of road user. It is the real consequence (death and injury) that is the real concern. A recent example with a potentially catastrophic outcome (to me) was a driver yesterday evening who chose to force me into the door-zone of a line of parked cars because they were seemingly unable to wait what would have literally been 2 seconds for the road ahead to be clear, and for me to be clear of the last parked car in the line. I'm not exaggerating about the 2 seconds. They jammed past me at the precise moment I was level with the rear door of the last parked car and as an oncoming vehicle was directly opposite. The road ahead was completely clear just 2 seconds later. As I said before, some drivers, some of the time. Not all drivers, all of the time. Ditto cyclists v pedestrians. Those who are guilty (motorists and cyclists) should be prosecuted and punished in accordance with the guidelines adopted by society.

 

If you don't think that the vast majority of motorists break the speed limit and roll through stop signs most of the time (when unimpeded) then you're not paying attention.

Oh come on winky, I am paying attention. I think this is beginning to reveal a bias on your part.

Even in Vancouver, I haven't experienced the widespread abuse of speed limits and red-light jumping that you are reporting.

Next time you drive to Whistler, try sitting on the posted 90 kmh speed limit (60 through Lion's Bay) and observe the constant stream of vehicles overtaking you. Or come around Stanley park in the morning with me and watch the regular stream of rat-runners bypassing the city driving at 60 to 70 kmhin the 30kmh zone . Have a coffee outside La Crema coffee shop on Bellevue Ave in Ambleside and count the number of cars that voluntarily completely stop at the 4-way stop sign. Hint, you'll be finished your coffee before you see even one.

My experience in Canada does include Vancouver - Whistler and on through Pemberton to Cache-Creek and Kamloops. It also includes most of Alberta, BC, and the Yukon. But most frequently Vernon and Canmore and all places in between from the Trans Canada to the Crow's Nest route. Through towns and villages I stick to the speed limit (or less if the conditions dictate). On the open road I tend to cruise like most people, at the limit or slightly over. This is not impatience on my part, usually just a desire not to impede others. I don't speed up on the overtaking sections, and am quite content for others who value their "down-time" in cars more highly than me, to pass even if they have to accelerate to (say) 20 over.

Sitting on the corner of 8th Street and 8th Ave sipping a beer in Canmore and observing the 4-way Stop junction reveals exemplary driving politeness. Most impressive.

I guess you just have to pick the right junction ?

However, even I (I am the model of patience and driving etiquette..............) find it a slightly irritating non-sense to have to actually STOP at these and other junctions, when it would be perfectly safe and environmentally more friendly to continue to "creep" forward and "go" when my turn, and safe to do so !!

I'm not saying people aren't polite at 4-way stops. Just that they don't stop. Being impatient isn't the same as being rude. It works much better when people don't stop, actually. I agree that the strict requirement is nonsense. On the rare occasions that everyone comes to a stop, there is always that awkward "after you, no after you, no after you..." jerky progress until things start flowing again.

You would not have exceed the speed limit to avoid impeding others if everyone else wasn't in a hurry.