Speakers for Naim 552DR & 500 with NDS source, Statement cables

Hi Martin
It's not often that people want to upgrade from a pair of DBLs; that's really quite a high bar!

Despite this, there is quite some choice.  However, auditioning at home, in your room, on your system is a must.  With a full range speaker, the speaker-room interaction is nigh on impossible to predict.  So you are in for a lengthy auditioning process.  Enjoy the journey!

One of the (many) remarkable aspects of the DBLs is their awesome bass response.  Matching or improving on this means a speaker with a substantial bass radiation area.  

There has been a recommendation for the PMC Fact12.  It is certainly a very good speaker in a larger room on the end of a 500 series system, but I'm not sure that it will better a pair of DBLs.  By all means try it if it piques your interest.  I'd be trying a pair of PMC MB2, so long as the aesthetics work for you.

DB clearly derives a lot of musical satisfaction from a pair of Ovator S800s - but drives them active to do so.

Companies such as ATC and ART know what they are doing with high end speakers.  I would contact ART directly to audition one of ART's Alnico signatures with 12 inch bass drivers (I own ART Alnicos with 8" bass drivers, so the babies!).  The ATC range I know less well.

Neat always match well with Naim, so the XL10 speakers would be worth putting on the list.

Kudos has just released the Titan 808, another talented design.

B&W will shortly be releasing the new 800D3 (I think it comes out in the New Year).

Finally, I would be taking a very serious look at Magico's Q and S range of speakers.  These may very well be the best of this talented bunch, by far.

Hope this helps, FT

Here we have gone from S400s to Aria 926s. Also went to Focal Sopra No2 demo and they are excellent, so much so I am considering mid-late next year upgrading 926s to Sopra No1 or No2 on a 272/250DR combo, only a home demo will make that decision but a +1 on Sopra No2 from what I heard from an NDS and LP12 via 552/500

Wilson Audio Sabrina

Audio Physic Virgo 25+

Magico S1

Speakers are so personal that people can really only enthuse about the ones they like - there is no right one for everyone. Since the DBL is the starting point then an upgrade from these is implicit I think - these set a reasonably high bar for that. You are very unlikely to improve on Bass quality with another speaker, although I feel the S800 has the 'Naim Bass' of a large full-range speaker with the enhancements of several decades of improved technology very evident to me in their speed and clarity. But they are large free-standing room speakers that present very differently in your room both visually and sonically - I find them a more involving speaker than many.

But you really need to hear some of the others mentioned above to have a pair that 'grab' you in what they do.

As has been said - I drive mine Active, as I find this transforms music delivery to a more immediate connection that I personally like - but again it is a personal preference and more expensive to achieve, so passive is a lot easier.

Let us know why you are wanting to change and where you eventually go with your new choice.

DB.

Harry posted:

Those Sopras seem to turned a kind of sonic corner for Focal. No one has a bad thing to say about them and no one (yet) has couched their observations. Are you thinking of going with Orange?

Orange? Yes Harry, that will work with my Lemon colour scheme here, the wife will love it 

Thanks to everyones comments and ideas. I've accepted I will change the DBL's for asthetic reasons (I know, I should put my foot down with a firm hand and just say they are staying....)! I will try and find someone to look at (or listen to) the acoustics of the room, I'm pretty convinced that there is something wrong with my system, it should be a significant upgrade to my system of 2 years ago (52 with pair 135's) but since then I've rebuilt the house and the listening room is completely different, much larger and with one glass wall over 7.5m long so there may well be some issues there. Martin M or anyone else know of acousticians to talk to in Hmapshire?

No doubt I have some interesting weeks ahead trying to solve that and demo the many ideas, certainly no rush!

Thanks again

Martin

You might be able to treat the room effectively, you might not. But no matter how the room sounds there will be speakers which will work perfectly in it, subject to correct positioning. You just have to find them and it's not something that can be prejudged. The important thing is to have some fun along the way. It could be a long way.

Dustysox posted:

Orange? Yes Harry, that will work with my Lemon colour scheme here, the wife will love it 

I suspected as much. 

MartinEvs posted:

Thanks to everyones comments and ideas. I've accepted I will change the DBL's for asthetic reasons (I know, I should put my foot down with a firm hand and just say they are staying....)! I will try and find someone to look at (or listen to) the acoustics of the room, I'm pretty convinced that there is something wrong with my system, it should be a significant upgrade to my system of 2 years ago (52 with pair 135's) but since then I've rebuilt the house and the listening room is completely different, much larger and with one glass wall over 7.5m long so there may well be some issues there. Martin M or anyone else know of acousticians to talk to in Hmapshire?

No doubt I have some interesting weeks ahead trying to solve that and demo the many ideas, certainly no rush!

Thanks again

Martin

Hi Martin,

You make a comment that you are convinced there's something wrong with your system because you expected a bigger upgrade?

Can I offer some insight on my experience with DBL's over the last year? I too was running 135's when I replaced my Briks for DBL's. My first thought on the DBL's were that they were faster and more emotionally involving than the Briks but kind of lacked the Briks classic boogie factor. It was an upgrade but not by much. I'd heard DBL's on the end of a friends systems so I knew that there should be more to come. This resulted in a slow and sometimes painful upgrade process. First to go was the 72 for a fully serviced 52 and an immediate improvement was gained in detail and realism. I then focused on front end improvements with power supplies, interconnects and powerlines. I now had deeper bass and great leading edges. The 135's were then replaced for a 3 year old 500, which probably made the single biggest difference to scale and speed. Finally, and surprisingly I played around with a lot of equipment stands. The stands were interesting as a certain set of stands really seemed to couple the speakers to the room resulting in the biggest, widest, deepest and most realistic sound stage I have ever heard.

i think the point that I'm trying to make is that DBL's are probably one of the most transparent transducers you will ever own. They will faithfully reproduce every downstream change you make. When you get it right they will reward you with some of the most realistic sounds you have ever heard. They can do 'concert' sound levels yet retain the delicacy of a single acoustic performer. An act that very few speakers can pull off.

Three months into owning DBL's I would have sold them if I'd got the right offer. One year into owning DBL's you'd have to prise them from my cold dead hands!

Try Westlake Tower SM1 speakers with 5 x 500 amps. 

With such a system choosing speakers is so personal. I would get to listen to as many high end speakers as you can and try to get your favourite three home for a dem.

I spent many years chasing my perfect speaker and went for the ART Dec 20's in the end.

Good luck and have fun testing those speakers.

Geko posted:

MartinEvs posted:

Thanks to everyones comments and ideas. I've accepted I will change the DBL's for asthetic reasons (I know, I should put my foot down with a firm hand and just say they are staying....)! I will try and find someone to look at (or listen to) the acoustics of the room, I'm pretty convinced that there is something wrong with my system, it should be a significant upgrade to my system of 2 years ago (52 with pair 135's) but since then I've rebuilt the house and the listening room is completely different, much larger and with one glass wall over 7.5m long so there may well be some issues there. Martin M or anyone else know of acousticians to talk to in Hmapshire?

No doubt I have some interesting weeks ahead trying to solve that and demo the many ideas, certainly no rush!

Thanks again

Martin

Hi Martin,

You make a comment that you are convinced there's something wrong with your system because you expected a bigger upgrade?

Can I offer some insight on my experience with DBL's over the last year? I too was running 135's when I replaced my Briks for DBL's. My first thought on the DBL's were that they were faster and more emotionally involving than the Briks but kind of lacked the Briks classic boogie factor. It was an upgrade but not by much. I'd heard DBL's on the end of a friends systems so I knew that there should be more to come. This resulted in a slow and sometimes painful upgrade process. First to go was the 72 for a fully serviced 52 and an immediate improvement was gained in detail and realism. I then focused on front end improvements with power supplies, interconnects and powerlines. I now had deeper bass and great leading edges. The 135's were then replaced for a 3 year old 500, which probably made the single biggest difference to scale and speed. Finally, and surprisingly I played around with a lot of equipment stands. The stands were interesting as a certain set of stands really seemed to couple the speakers to the room resulting in the biggest, widest, deepest and most realistic sound stage I have ever heard.

i think the point that I'm trying to make is that DBL's are probably one of the most transparent transducers you will ever own. They will faithfully reproduce every downstream change you make. When you get it right they will reward you with some of the most realistic sounds you have ever heard. They can do 'concert' sound levels yet retain the delicacy of a single acoustic performer. An act that very few speakers can pull off.

Three months into owning DBL's I would have sold them if I'd got the right offer. One year into owning DBL's you'd have to prise them from my cold dead hands!

Hi Geko

It's an interesting process and I find it takes me a long time to decide if I like something or not! I'd be interested to get a few other people experienced in these systems to come and have a listen, don't suppose your anywhere nearby? I'm near Petersfield, Hants.

Thanks again

Martin

Ex-DBL owner her. I would recommend you audition the Kudos Titan's.  Different than DBLs, the Kudos excel in delicacy and resolution.  The new T808 model is supposed to have more scale but I've yet to hear it.   Derek uses Naim electronics to design his speakers.  

I have to second Chris. I have more or less the same system (but with Sarum Super Aray) and Kudos Titans 808 are something to be heard to be belived. 

Stunning they are...

//Jonas

Jonas... You promised us pictures of your new Titans! 

MartinEvs posted:

Geko posted:

MartinEvs posted:

Thanks to everyones comments and ideas. I've accepted I will change the DBL's for asthetic reasons (I know, I should put my foot down with a firm hand and just say they are staying....)! I will try and find someone to look at (or listen to) the acoustics of the room, I'm pretty convinced that there is something wrong with my system, it should be a significant upgrade to my system of 2 years ago (52 with pair 135's) but since then I've rebuilt the house and the listening room is completely different, much larger and with one glass wall over 7.5m long so there may well be some issues there. Martin M or anyone else know of acousticians to talk to in Hmapshire?

No doubt I have some interesting weeks ahead trying to solve that and demo the many ideas, certainly no rush!

Thanks again

Martin

Hi Martin,

You make a comment that you are convinced there's something wrong with your system because you expected a bigger upgrade?

Can I offer some insight on my experience with DBL's over the last year? I too was running 135's when I replaced my Briks for DBL's. My first thought on the DBL's were that they were faster and more emotionally involving than the Briks but kind of lacked the Briks classic boogie factor. It was an upgrade but not by much. I'd heard DBL's on the end of a friends systems so I knew that there should be more to come. This resulted in a slow and sometimes painful upgrade process. First to go was the 72 for a fully serviced 52 and an immediate improvement was gained in detail and realism. I then focused on front end improvements with power supplies, interconnects and powerlines. I now had deeper bass and great leading edges. The 135's were then replaced for a 3 year old 500, which probably made the single biggest difference to scale and speed. Finally, and surprisingly I played around with a lot of equipment stands. The stands were interesting as a certain set of stands really seemed to couple the speakers to the room resulting in the biggest, widest, deepest and most realistic sound stage I have ever heard.

i think the point that I'm trying to make is that DBL's are probably one of the most transparent transducers you will ever own. They will faithfully reproduce every downstream change you make. When you get it right they will reward you with some of the most realistic sounds you have ever heard. They can do 'concert' sound levels yet retain the delicacy of a single acoustic performer. An act that very few speakers can pull off.

Three months into owning DBL's I would have sold them if I'd got the right offer. One year into owning DBL's you'd have to prise them from my cold dead hands!

Hi Geko

It's an interesting process and I find it takes me a long time to decide if I like something or not! I'd be interested to get a few other people experienced in these systems to come and have a listen, don't suppose your anywhere nearby? I'm near Petersfield, Hants.

Thanks again

Martin

Sorry Martin, I'm not that close to you but if I were I would, and you'd be more than welcome to have a listen to mine. A friend has DBL's active with 135's, which is also pretty impressive.

If you have the time and the inclination to explore some of the other members reccomendations then why not? All I can say is that my DBL's have changed their sound quite dramatically over the course of a year due to the various upgrades and I not swap them for anything.

I've also heard DBL's on the end of a full statement system, and belive me they are not limiting performance in the slightest! In this system the scale, dynamics and speed were simply breathtaking.

I have found them very critical of positioning and floor interface. Naim chips are mandatory if you are on a solid floor. Get them as close as you can to the  rear wall and give them between 1 and 2 cm toe in. Unscrew the cross-over screws to the point where they are almost falling out and the cross-overs are hanging very loosely. The grommets on the cross-over plastic should not be compressed by the screw head. The bass seal and gasket should be checked if they have ever been moved any distance assembled and I'd also check the little aluminium plates on the mid/treble to see if they have been perforated.

They are such sensitive speakers that if any of the above is even slightly off they will not sound how they should.

I hope some of this helps?

Martin,

sorry just saw your request.  You could try Custom Audio Designs in Petersfield. All the best!

I must add that the DBL's I heard at my dealer with 135's stand out as one of the most enjoyable listening experience ever, actually jaw dropping would be a better description, much more so than S800's I heard at a different venue.

Speakers that have really impressed along with DBL's would be Magico with D'Agostino electronics and Dynaudio Evidence on the end of a Naim 500 series system. The Dyn's and Magico's were truly awesome, and I would think better the Titans, but don't know that as a fact, that is just based on my belief that what I heard would be terribly hard to improve upon.

Geko posted:

MartinEvs posted:

Geko posted:

MartinEvs posted:

Thanks to everyones comments and ideas. I've accepted I will change the DBL's for asthetic reasons (I know, I should put my foot down with a firm hand and just say they are staying....)! I will try and find someone to look at (or listen to) the acoustics of the room, I'm pretty convinced that there is something wrong with my system, it should be a significant upgrade to my system of 2 years ago (52 with pair 135's) but since then I've rebuilt the house and the listening room is completely different, much larger and with one glass wall over 7.5m long so there may well be some issues there. Martin M or anyone else know of acousticians to talk to in Hmapshire?

No doubt I have some interesting weeks ahead trying to solve that and demo the many ideas, certainly no rush!

Thanks again

Martin

Hi Martin,

You make a comment that you are convinced there's something wrong with your system because you expected a bigger upgrade?

Can I offer some insight on my experience with DBL's over the last year? I too was running 135's when I replaced my Briks for DBL's. My first thought on the DBL's were that they were faster and more emotionally involving than the Briks but kind of lacked the Briks classic boogie factor. It was an upgrade but not by much. I'd heard DBL's on the end of a friends systems so I knew that there should be more to come. This resulted in a slow and sometimes painful upgrade process. First to go was the 72 for a fully serviced 52 and an immediate improvement was gained in detail and realism. I then focused on front end improvements with power supplies, interconnects and powerlines. I now had deeper bass and great leading edges. The 135's were then replaced for a 3 year old 500, which probably made the single biggest difference to scale and speed. Finally, and surprisingly I played around with a lot of equipment stands. The stands were interesting as a certain set of stands really seemed to couple the speakers to the room resulting in the biggest, widest, deepest and most realistic sound stage I have ever heard.

i think the point that I'm trying to make is that DBL's are probably one of the most transparent transducers you will ever own. They will faithfully reproduce every downstream change you make. When you get it right they will reward you with some of the most realistic sounds you have ever heard. They can do 'concert' sound levels yet retain the delicacy of a single acoustic performer. An act that very few speakers can pull off.

Three months into owning DBL's I would have sold them if I'd got the right offer. One year into owning DBL's you'd have to prise them from my cold dead hands!

Hi Geko

It's an interesting process and I find it takes me a long time to decide if I like something or not! I'd be interested to get a few other people experienced in these systems to come and have a listen, don't suppose your anywhere nearby? I'm near Petersfield, Hants.

Thanks again

Martin

Sorry Martin, I'm not that close to you but if I were I would, and you'd be more than welcome to have a listen to mine. A friend has DBL's active with 135's, which is also pretty impressive.

If you have the time and the inclination to explore some of the other members reccomendations then why not? All I can say is that my DBL's have changed their sound quite dramatically over the course of a year due to the various upgrades and I not swap them for anything.

I've also heard DBL's on the end of a full statement system, and belive me they are not limiting performance in the slightest! In this system the scale, dynamics and speed were simply breathtaking.

I have found them very critical of positioning and floor interface. Naim chips are mandatory if you are on a solid floor. Get them as close as you can to the  rear wall and give them between 1 and 2 cm toe in. Unscrew the cross-over screws to the point where they are almost falling out and the cross-overs are hanging very loosely. The grommets on the cross-over plastic should not be compressed by the screw head. The bass seal and gasket should be checked if they have ever been moved any distance assembled and I'd also check the little aluminium plates on the mid/treble to see if they have been perforated.

They are such sensitive speakers that if any of the above is even slightly off they will not sound how they should.

I hope some of this helps?

 

No aluminium plates on my mid/treble box.

Vincenzo

This was a big debate about 3 months ago when I asked the question about alu plates on the top dbl boxes. The final thoughts were that dbls didnt have the alu plates on the top box and Richard Dane got involved and asked some prominant installers. I then heard from our distributer who was told by Roy George, the man who designed these wonderful speakers, that most did not have the plates  but some pairs that left the factory did, so looks like that they may have some  benefit it if used up top. I guess the important thing is that the holes in the wood are filled up and sanded flat for a nice fit with the 4 spikes.

Mario.

martinevs,

From what I've read, the room has changed substantially in that it's a lot larger than it was, though I'm unclear about the exact dimensions. Also, you mentioned that the DBLs are really moving on for aesthetic reasons. Does this mean you have other requirements too? e.g. do the speakers need to be discreet, close to the wall, certain size etc.? These clues could help us narrow down the options for you. 

Also, you say it's not sounding as good as it should. Apart from the obvious that the room has changed, did you rebuild the system yourself or get your dealer to do this for you? Has anything changed in the wiring (given the work done, this could be different and affecting the system)?

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Chris Bell posted:

Jonas... You promised us pictures of your new Titans! 

I can post a suitable pic if the mods allow?

KR

Peter

Passive dibble are but a pale shadow of active dibbles

if I had to move away from my 135 six pack dibbles there is only one game in town for me: statement pre power plus magicos. That combination is off this planet