New system progress

The 72/Hicap/250 is a real classic. The Credos are good speakers. The Heybrook is ok, but as you identify you can do better. I'd track down an LP12 if you have a decent dealer nearby, or are willing to travel. Once set up it will stay in tune for ages. If you could get hold of one with an Ittok or Ekos, that would be perfect. If you can't find, or don't want, a Linn, a Gyro or Orbe would be excellent alternatives, or one of the better Regas. When I had a Linn I tried the P9 but found it anaemic and uninvolving, but others love them. With a good deck in place I'd then be looking for some good SBLs, so long as you have a solid brick wall to put them against. That would provide a great quality yet good value system.

As to stands, steel can sound hard, whereas wood is more mellow. Isoblue would be my choice, or a Quadraspire SVT. 

Thanks Halibut, I was wondering about the merits of the Gyrodec vs the LP12 in a naim system, I see good used examples of Gyros for around £600, a fair bit cheaper than LP12s.

Mikeandvan posted:

I see good used examples of Gyros for around £600, a fair bit cheaper than LP12s.

I wonder why 

Hello again, been listening to the 250 for about a week now. Good points are the music seems to have slightly less glare than when I used the 180, and generally has a bit more detail, digs a bit deeper, can be quite satisfying with slower music like soul, or Scott walkers 60s lps for instance. But one very noticeable downside is how slow it is, and this really disappoints with fast music like the Rolling Stones, honestly, its like my turntable is running at the wrong speed!  Shame as I am enjoying the lusher more spacious sound it seems to give over the 180.  Another thing I noticed was when playing the Kinks early stuff, the sound seemed to lack the punch and snap of the 180. I'm actually wondering whether high end hi-fi gear is best suited to pop/rock music at all? I do listen to other genres like jazz, classical, and also harsher avant garde styles!

After a bit of 'googling' I see it is the regulated power supply in the 250 that makes it sound slow. I am now thinking of going back to the 180 or even a 140, (I use a 72/Hicap), as I listen to a fair bit of hard, fast music, like Stones, Kinks etc. But from there on I would prefer an amp that satisfies on both levels. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.   

Give it time. The effect of sounding slower is due to the better resolution of the 250. It will sound initially less exciting than the 180. I had the latter for a few years but never got on with its edginess. It can sound 'faster' due to its rougher nature. It is certainly an exciting presentation, but a little unruly. When I moved to the 250, everything fell into place. The 250 was sublime for many years with an 82 pre and now does stellar duty fed by a 252.

The 250 is less 'in your face' but provides a lot more insight into the music. Then again, you may just prefer the 180's style of presentation, if your musical diet is mostly hard fast rock.

Sometimes a NAP250 can sound like it's slower than a NAP180, perhaps because of the greater bandwidth, particularly in the bass.  A regulated amp does not necessarily translate into a slower amp - it can just seem that way if the system is not ideally optimised.  For all that, my CB 250 started to sound a bit slow and uninteresting (this compared to a recently service NAP160) and I reckon it was because it had just passed the 8 year mark since the last service.  So don't rule that out of the equation.  Or it may just be that you like the lighter seemingly more sprightly presentation of the lesser amp.  Certainly the "fastest" sounding Naim amp I have is a rather sublime little NAP110.  

When I swapped a serviced 180 for a serviced 250, using IBLs, the improvement was dramatic and wholly positive. That said, recognise the description of the better amp as slower - it's because the better amp has more control and therefore music stops and starts more clearly, which provides more space and music therefore can initially appear slower. It hope that makes sense! The lesser amps can sound more exciting because they sound more hurried, like everything is being thrown at you. You may like that of course, but do give the 250 time for you to understand what it's going. If you still don't like it after a few weeks, stick with the 180. 

Mikeandvan posted:

But one very noticeable downside is how slow it is, and this really disappoints with fast music like the Rolling Stones, honestly, its like my turntable is running at the wrong speed!  Shame as I am enjoying the lusher more spacious sound it seems to give over the 180.  

I would echo the "give it time" advice - when I changed to an olive NAP250 from a NAP110 I was initially a bit underwhelmed. The 250 came good and I used it for nearly 20 years.

Spookily though I still have the NAP110 

Richard Dane posted:

Sometimes a NAP250 can sound like it's slower than a NAP180, perhaps because of the greater bandwidth, particularly in the bass.  A regulated amp does not necessarily translate into a slower amp - it can just seem that way if the system is not ideally optimised.  For all that, my CB 250 started to sound a bit slow and uninteresting (this compared to a recently service NAP160) and I reckon it was because it had just passed the 8 year mark since the last service.  So don't rule that out of the equation.  Or it may just be that you like the lighter seemingly more sprightly presentation of the lesser amp.  Certainly the "fastest" sounding Naim amp I have is a rather sublime little NAP110.  

Thanks Richard, the 250 is a 2002 model, so one of the last of the olives, it was serviced by Naim in 2009, the 180 to my knowledge was never serviced. 

Mikeandvan posted:

first I thought Linn Sondek, but buying second hand puts me off for such a fragile instrument, especially when so many you see on the 'bay could have been just cobbled together from spare parts, I thought might as well buy a new one

I wrestled with this dilemma, but decided to cobble together an LP12/Aro/Armageddon and have been accumulating the parts for a few months now. (Just got the final missing piece and will be having it set up in the next few weeks.)

The way I figure it, many folks' Sondeks have been upgraded over the years to the point where little of the original machine remains. Also, since an Aro-based 'table is impossible to demo (unless one pays a visit to Peter at Cymbiosis -- not in the cards for this New Yorker), I wanted to have an "extended listen" at a cost where I can sell it on with minimal financial pain if I so choose.

All this is to say: why not give it a shot?

Mike hi - As far as the TT goes it depends on your budget but at anything under £1K I'd be looking at a better Rega - not fragile plug and play.  The P6 and old P5 with a good cartridge make great music.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Mike hi - As far as the TT goes it depends on your budget but at anything under £1K I'd be looking at a better Rega - not fragile plug and play.  The P6 and old P5 with a good cartridge make great music.

Yeah i been thinking, my Heybrook TT2 seems pretty good, its been serviced recently too, I think I'm gonna have to make a significant investment to get a worthwhile upgrade.  TBH my knowledge of record decks is pretty sparse, and I'm not keen on trying different ones out in 'listening rooms', I might just go the second hand route, may'be a Michell Gyro or decent LP12, start with deck first, use my current Rb300, then may'be upgrade to a better tonearm. But to be honest I wonder whether its all worth it, as I said the Heybrook I own now is really solid, and in great condition, I wonder whether an upgrade is worth it, though the  names of the Linn upgrades sound most alluring,Keel, Radikal, Urika!.........These all seem to be attempts to modernise an outdated design, why not just a buy a modern deck??

Emm,  was playing the Stones 'Beggars banquet' the other day, and it sounded rather tinny!! I don't think I like the 250. I wonder would I be better off ditching my olive kit and going for a 202 or new nait? Or an a whole new system with some soundstage perhaps?

The 72/Hicap/250 is absolutely not tinny, so something must be amiss in your setup. You then mention soundstage being an issue, which is something else entirely. Are your speakers in phase - things seen to have gone awry since the 250 arrived, so maybe you have wired it up wrong. 

Joe9407- 
If you're interested in hearing an aro based system in N.Y., I think dave at accent on music (in Mt. Kisco) would still have one set up. You'd have to call first to verify.

Mikeandvan,

I've only just spotted this thread otherwise I would have responded earlier.

I used to own a Manticore Mantra with a Rega RB300 arm and Audio Technica moving coil cartridge some time ago. The Manticore along with your Heybrook were 2 of the 3 or 4 best turntables of their day at a level below the LP12. I replaced my Manticore with a Michell Orbe with Michel Tecnoarm (a reworked Rega RB300) and a Dynavector moving coil cartridge. However, I have also listened extensively to a Michel Gyrodek, and I can assure you that they both operate at a level way above that of the Manticore or Heybrook.

If you can source a second hand Gyro or Gyrodek (or even better still an Orbe) with a Rega or Michell arm, you will certainly not be disappointed.

Another advantage of these turntables is that they are easier to set up than an LP12, and a belated answer to Chris Nolan's post - mysticism?

Hungryhalibut posted:

The 72/Hicap/250 is absolutely not tinny, so something must be amiss in your setup. You then mention soundstage being an issue, which is something else entirely. Are your speakers in phase - things seen to have gone awry since the 250 arrived, so maybe you have wired it up wrong. 

 

I think all wirings ok, may'be I should get some new speakers, Credos don't seem to be very well regared.

Mikeandvan posted:

I think all wirings OK, maybe I should get some new speakers, Credos don't seem to be very well regarded.

I can't see any good reason why you ever bought Naim - let alone feel the need to stick with it.

While the forum can offer advice (of varying usefulness) it's down to you to satisfy yourself as to the wisdom of your choices. You seem to have agglomerated the total of all advice and bought on that basis.

You're not happy yet display a degree of cynicism toward some of the options you are offered. Rather than use your own, faulty, logic to pick a path out of your present dissatisfaction - why not save yourself a lot of heartache and get involved with a retailer who can allow you the, necessary, luxury of listening to a variety of equipment before deciding on a combination that satisfies you?

In this case it isn't Naim that has let you down. You need to actively make decisions and enjoy living with the consequences.

Naim isn't the only fruit and - perhaps you don't like kumquats.

Credos are excellent.  No problems there.  A good pair make most other speakers sound unexciting, over-warm and a bit sluggish.

Only issue is that because they are a boundary placement design, that illusion of depth that you can get with free standing designs is not so apparent, although if it's there on the recording, you'll hear it well enough from the Credos.  Also, placement is key within the room.  Boundary designs have to work with the room otherwise they can sound either overblown or too thin and weedy.  Be prepared to move furniture around to find the best placement for both speakers and your favoured listing position.  

On the basis of the sound you say you like, they're one of the last things I would change here.

Thanks Richard,

There isn't too much I can do with my listening room/lounge, unless I start mounting equipment on walls or something.  Included is pic of my flat, luckily I don't have neighbours due to the unique positioning of my building! Just moved in, but can't think of any other way to organise room due to the juliet balcony at one end of room, didn't really want to block it off with sofa.

Oh, dunno how to download pics.

Adam Meredith posted:

Mikeandvan posted:

I think all wirings OK, maybe I should get some new speakers, Credos don't seem to be very well regarded.

I can't see any good reason why you ever bought Naim - let alone feel the need to stick with it.

While the forum can offer advice (of varying usefulness) it's down to you to satisfy yourself as to the wisdom of your choices. You seem to have agglomerated the total of all advice and bought on that basis.

You're not happy yet display a degree of cynicism toward some of the options you are offered. Rather than use your own, faulty, logic to pick a path out of your present dissatisfaction - why not save yourself a lot of heartache and get involved with a retailer who can allow you the, necessary, luxury of listening to a variety of equipment before deciding on a combination that satisfies you?

In this case it isn't Naim that has let you down. You need to actively make decisions and enjoy living with the consequences.

Naim isn't the only fruit and - perhaps you don't like kumquats.

I can't remember exactly why I started buying Naim either, must have read about it in What Hi- Fi or something. I remember looking into the window of my local Hi-Fi shop about 15 years ago and seeing the Naim olive stuff and thinking, wow, they look impressive,so yeh, that was what did it for me ! TBH I don't have much experience of other brands, and new hi fi might a be bit expensive for me. But I'll stick with this set up for now, do some tweaking, see where that gets me. 

Hmack posted:

Mikeandvan,

I've only just spotted this thread otherwise I would have responded earlier.

I used to own a Manticore Mantra with a Rega RB300 arm and Audio Technica moving coil cartridge some time ago. The Manticore along with your Heybrook were 2 of the 3 or 4 best turntables of their day at a level below the LP12. I replaced my Manticore with a Michell Orbe with Michel Tecnoarm (a reworked Rega RB300) and a Dynavector moving coil cartridge. However, I have also listened extensively to a Michel Gyrodek, and I can assure you that they both operate at a level way above that of the Manticore or Heybrook.

If you can source a second hand Gyro or Gyrodek (or even better still an Orbe) with a Rega or Michell arm, you will certainly not be disappointed.

Another advantage of these turntables is that they are easier to set up than an LP12, and a belated answer to Chris Nolan's post - mysticism?

Thanks Hmack, thats another vote for a Gyrodec!