NDS/555 vs. NDS/2x555

Darke Bear posted:

Graham Clarke posted:

...

On the 8 way mains block the ordering is (from left to right, right hand end is closest to mains cable connecting it to wall):

(1) Melco (2) Snaxo Supercap (3) NDAC XPSDR (4) 555PS (5) 555PS (6) 300DR (bottom most bass driver) (7) 300DR (top most bass driver) (8) 300DR (BMR)

I'm going to have a listen with the NDAC powered off and disconnected from the standard supply in case this is causing an RF loop as mentioned elsewhere.

Gary - any recommendation on plug ordering?  Which of the NDS feeds is the digital input and which the analogue?  At present (when looking from the back of NDS) 555 #4 is connected to right hand Burndy input and 555 #5 is connected to left hand.

Ordering from wall and away from it should be:

Bass Power Amp(s) - Mid/HF Power Amps - Snaxo PS - Pre - Source Analogue PS --- Source Digital PS

Probably consider the Melco as a 'Source Digital PS' in this case and put it at the very end.

The idea is that the Power Amps draw the most dynamic current and the Bass Amps the most - these need to have access to the wall first and not be daisy-chained through all the other supplies, as the otherwise introduce large music-related IR-drops onto the other supplies. The Power Amps are not Class A units so they are worst offenders. You also need them sequenced to keep all loops between mains and equipment small and non-overlapping.

As for the NDS supplies - the one which turns on the display is the digital supply - it will also be the one that the light goes out quickest when you turn-off the mains, as the digital side of the NDS draws most current - the Analogue PS will linger longer before going off.

Try this - it should resolve all your problems, as I've verified it in multiple systems.

DB.

Thanks Gary. 

What about the 2 Powerlines for the NDAC (one to XPS, other direct to digital section of NDAC), any thoughts on those?  The above configuration (including Melco) leaves me with two free wall sockets.  I'm not worried about trying to optimise the NDAC too much given that it's used solely for listening to TV broadcasts.  I guess for now I just use those sockets for the NDAC/XPS.  I can unplug the NDAC during serious listening tests in case using the two spurs causes problems.  Longer term if I keep the second 555 and Melco I'll likely get a 4 way mains block of same type as my 8 way and put everything on there.  

Harry posted:

To Graham's OP:

Big difference across the board. Texture and timing seem to benefit the most, with spatial positioning also resolving. Lots of straight HiFi differences too like tracks resolving into multiple tracks, harmonies resolving better into different voices, subtle strains and whips emerging from the floor, bass that starts and stops with a bit more precision. And all that. 

Above all it's just more musical enjoyment. Unforced, natural, more immersive. Like an NDS/555PS only better. It is not a diminishing return in my view but since it is so easy to do the AB we can each of us draw our own conclusions and make our own value judgement.

Overall I'd say it's definitely the equivalent of a box upgrade!

Hi Harry,

I wondered if you would reply as I remember you strongly encouraging me to try this earlier this year   My dilemma was simply ordering of upgrades and so I put this towards the bottom of the list.

Maybe the plug ordering will make a difference but at present I still think the upgrade order was appropriate.

The funny thing is that part of my brain really wants to believe it's better and is trying to tell another part (which aurally isn't convinced) that I'm wrong somehow!

It's ok Graham, I spoke to your stock broker over the holidays, pull the Trigger! LOL.....

Graham Clarke posted:

...The above configuration (including Melco) leaves me with two free wall sockets. 

Plug the two Bass Power Amps into the wall and shuffle everything else up. Try to have the Bass Amps either side of the electrical connection to the wire to the block, so it sits in-between.

DB.

The difficulty in trying to reproduce other's positive experiences is exacerbated when we're using different sources. I wonder if you've tried the 2x555ps' into the NDS without the Melco in the chain Graham?

Graham Clarke posted:

What about the 2 Powerlines for the NDAC (one to XPS, other direct to digital section of NDAC), any thoughts on those? 

If they are a 'secondary source' then put them at the far end of the chain and turn-off (even consider up-plug) when not using them.

This is just a suggestion.

DB.

Not to jump on this thread, but regarding mentioned power distribution blocks.....

I also need a power block for 272/250DR, have Powerline left over from last system and thought to run power line from mains into a 4/6 way block and use NAIMs supplied 13amp plugs into that block.

Daft idea or worth a shout, running my one Powerline from mains into a 4/6 way distribution block? Are they really meant to do that?

I use a Powerline to feed my Mains Block. Twice as much improvement!? Well it sounded better so I use it that way.

DB.

Allante93 posted:

It's ok Graham, I spoke to your stock broker over the holidays, pull the Trigger! LOL.....

Money isn't the issue in this case.  Ensuring it's a step in the right direction is the key concern...

Darke Bear posted:

Graham Clarke posted:

...The above configuration (including Melco) leaves me with two free wall sockets. 

Plug the two Bass Power Amps into the wall and shuffle everything else up. Try to have the Bass Amps either side of the electrical connection to the wire to the block, so it sits in-between.

DB.

OK, I'll plug one in, as plugging both in would either move the mains block onto the standard ring main or one of the bass amps onto it, neither of which I'm guessing is optimal.

tonym posted:

The difficulty in trying to reproduce other's positive experiences is exacerbated when we're using different sources. I wonder if you've tried the 2x555ps' into the NDS without the Melco in the chain Graham?

Hi Tony,

No, I haven't tried that yet, trying to get what should in theory be the optimal set up working first, but it is on my list of things to try.

I'm guessing that there aren't many people with an active system with S1, full SL loom who have tried the combination of Melco/NDS/555x2!

Graham Clarke posted:The funny thing is that part of my brain really wants to believe it's better and is trying to tell another part (which aurally isn't convinced) that I'm wrong somehow!

Graham, it really shouldnt take a lot of messing about to determine one way or the other whether 2nd 555PS on NDS is worthwhile. In your specific setup, seems it isnt. If i were you i would draw a line under this and move on. it clearly doesnt work for you and you have enough experience in this business to know that this happens for a whole raft of reasons. 

i will however agree that the 2nd 555PS isnt night and day wow! its effects are at quite a subtle level and it is at this level that vital musical nuances shine through. to me this is very important, and that is why i love my 2nd 555PS and, evidently, feel cannot do without it.

as i recall when i listened to ypur system, before all the subsequent upgrades, it sounded mighty fine to me... sans melco and 2nd 555PS...

enjoy

ken

Darke Bear posted:

Graham Clarke posted:

What about the 2 Powerlines for the NDAC (one to XPS, other direct to digital section of NDAC), any thoughts on those? 

If they are a 'secondary source' then put them at the far end of the chain and turn-off (even consider up-plug) when not using them.

This is just a suggestion.

DB.

Thanks, I'll move them to the end as you suggest.  Can't really turn off the NDAC because it's used almost daily and what with the XPS's tendency to blow fuses when powered on that would get tiresome very fast.  Maybe I should replace it with a 555PS instead

Graham Clarke posted:I'm guessing that there aren't many people with an active system with S1, full SL loom who have tried the combination of Melco/NDS/555x2!

this made me laugh!!

excellent guess, Graham!! 

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

Graham Clarke posted:The funny thing is that part of my brain really wants to believe it's better and is trying to tell another part (which aurally isn't convinced) that I'm wrong somehow!

Graham, it really shouldnt take a lot of messing about to determine one way or the other whether 2nd 555PS on NDS is worthwhile. In your specific setup, seems it isnt. If i were you i would draw a line under this and move on. it clearly doesnt work for you and you have enough experience in this business to know that this happens for a whole raft of reasons. 

i will however agree that the 2nd 555PS isnt night and day wow! its effects are at quite a subtle level and it is at this level that vital musical nuances shine through. to me this is very important, and that is why i love my 2nd 555PS and, evidently, feel cannot do without it.

as i recall when i listened to ypur system, before all the subsequent upgrades, it sounded mighty fine to me... sans melco and 2nd 555PS...

enjoy

ken

I'm curious to see whether plug ordering makes a difference.  If it doesn't then I'll try second 555PS without the Melco and then decide. 

Darke Bear posted:

I use a Powerline to feed my Mains Block. Twice as much improvement!? Well it sounded better so I use it that way.

DB.

Thanks DB.... ;-)

Graham Clarke posted:

I'm curious to see whether plug ordering makes a difference.  If it doesn't then I'll try second 555PS without the Melco and then decide. 

Good idea Graham. I predict this will not make enough of a difference to swing the decision on way or the other...  but of course i could be wrong...

enjoy

ken

FWIW, I too was sceptical about plugging order but now pray firmly at the alter of Mr DB!  I have four unswitched sockets fed from a separate consumer unit; the 300PS goes into the first; the PL feeding the block goes into the second; socket 1 of the block has the 552; socket 2 has the analogue 555; socket 6 has the digital 555.  I found this order yielded a worthwhile improvement over the previous, which had everything on the block with source first, pre second and power last.

The Netgear switch and UnitiServe PS are plugged into an adjacent ring main and most definitely do degrade the sound if placed on the spur.

Clearly Graham, your system will be far more revealing than mine but it could well be that the extra resolving power shows up the improvement even more!

Cheers,

Ian

Plugs now fiddled and put into the recommended order (thanks Gary).  I had an initial listen and was struggling to hear a difference.  On some tracks the HF still sounds too forward to me, while on others I didn't know well it sounded fine.

I tried 2 555PS without the Melco and heard much the same.  I tried switching back to a single 555 and the forwardness receded slightly.

Given the whole system was powered down (albeit for maybe only 5 minutes) I'll give it time to settle and have a more serious listen tomorrow.  All remains a bit of a conundrum...

The two 555PS does sound, on initial listening, more 'forward'. Later I found that the single supply actually sounds overly laid-back or even lacking focus, so you need to play a load of music and relax and just let it connect - or not - over an extended period.

Using the comparative faculties of the Intellect tends to push-out the deeper mind and emotional modes I use in music I find, so I try to just live with something for a while to see if it moves me or a definite 'no' emerges.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

The two 555PS does sound, on initial listening, more 'forward'. Later I found that the single supply actually sounds overly laid-back or even lacking focus, so you need to play a load of music and relax and just let it connect - or not - over an extended period.

Using the comparative faculties of the Intellect tends to push-out the deeper mind and emotional modes I use in music I find, so I try to just live with something for a while to see if it moves me or a definite 'no' emerges.

DB.

Well, I've got it for a while longer so hopefully that will happen one way or the other.

At least I can rest assured that there aren't any other tweaks or set up changes I should make.  So when I do make a final decision I won't be haunted with questions like "well if only you'd done this..."

Thanks for your help.

All upgrades should be based on something gained that is of value. Some things I value a lot and we are different more than many like to want to admit I think in what we like to have done right. I've heard some things that I was expected to love and they left me cold, as they seemed to just shift focus a bit and make something else I valued worse - but it was only me that really heard that, so it can be a rather personal preference.

My decisions on two supplies were made with the CD555 head unit, but I thought it did the same sort of thing with the NDS when I home-trialed one a year or so ago, so didn't really do a lot of A-B listening tests, just used the 2x555PS with CD555 then on the NDS. On the CD555 it made things more intimate and real to me, as well as the rather obvious improvements in retail and resolution - it was not subtle to me.

DB.

Graham,

I know this is a bit of a side issue and may not be much help to you, but have you tried using your NDS digital in from your TV?  I'm sure you probably have a reason for keeping the nDAC as you do, but I had an nDAC converting the TV signal until I was fortunate enough to go to an NDS.  The NDS then took the digital signal from the TV as well as doing its music duties so there was no need for the nDAC.

You could free up two shelves (nDAC and XPS), simplify your system and there would be less issues from a signal ground perspective too.

If you really are just using the nDAC for TV signal duties, this could make sense?  

Just a thought...

Jason.

Graham Clarke posted:

MDS posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Graham, with regard to 8 plug mains block, effectively acting as a 13 amp spur, I find these can really improve things when the mains cable feeding the block is braided with many smaller conductors to impede RF .. It really quietens the mains and helps spaces in the audio and allows the sound to breath better without the fuss or possible side effects of conditioners.. I find it reduces the visible hash on the mains ( when using a scope).. compared to dedicated rings or radials on thier own. Do you use such cable? If not it might be worthwhile looking out for it if not.

Simon

I think Russ Andrews' mains blocks (and power cables) uses a braided weave to reduce RF.

Mike 

I struggle a bit with many Russ Andrews' products because their marketing makes them appear a bit "snake oil" to me.  My only experience is with their consumer unit so my perception may be grossly unfair, I don't know. 

We can't post links here however if you Google for "mcru 10mm sq shielded mains spur cable" you'll find the ring main cable I'm using.  It also uses a braided weave, as you can see in the photograph.  The cable from the 3 pin plug to the mains block is the 6mm sq variant of the same.

Prior to moving to Naim gear I used to have quite a bit of Russ Andrews stuff in my system: mains cables, interconnects, speaker cables (the latter mostly Kimber, though sold in the UK by RA).  In my previous systems eg Audiolab, Chord Electronics, Theta, I found the RA mains cables beneficial so felt some of their hype was warranted.  Most of the RA stuff is now in my loft but my dedicated rings-main is RA woven mains cables, as is my power block.  I don't suffer any problems with my mains i.e. no pops, clicks, no RFI interference and I rarely get any transformer hum.  Prior to installing the dedicated circuit using RA mains cable I used to get some of these problems so I'm pretty sure there's something in what RA say.  Must also say that I used to find RA's customer to be excellent.

Mike    

Jason posted:

Graham,

I know this is a bit of a side issue and may not be much help to you, but have you tried using your NDS digital in from your TV?  I'm sure you probably have a reason for keeping the nDAC as you do, but I had an nDAC converting the TV signal until I was fortunate enough to go to an NDS.  The NDS then took the digital signal from the TV as well as doing its music duties so there was no need for the nDAC.

You could free up two shelves (nDAC and XPS), simplify your system and there would be less issues from a signal ground perspective too.

If you really are just using the nDAC for TV signal duties, this could make sense?  

Just a thought...

Jason.

Jason,

Been covered before but I suspect you've not seen my previous comments on it.  I have 3 digital sources: TV, Sky box, Panasonic BluRay DVR.  To connect them to the hifi requires 8m cables, so I'm pretty much limited to using optical cables.  NDAC has 4 of these, NDS has one.  So one issue is that I wouldn't be able to connect them all.

Second issue is complexity through having to potentially switch NDS inputs via iPad.  My wife finds it confusing enough (having to select either Stream or AV on the S1 then select correct input on NDAC) without adding a further step.

Longer term if I kept the 555PS and Melco, I'd get another mains block which would allow them all to live off the same dedicated spur.  Didn't want to spend c. £200 to do that just for the demo.