NDS/555 vs. NDS/2x555

Chris Bell posted:

I've been running 2x555ps on my NDS for some time now.  One is DR which sounds best on the digital side.  The NDS really comes to life with two power supplies... there's more magic, more sparkle to the sound.  

Streaming audio is very tweaky.  I've found linear power supplies for all parts of the chain are crucial (NAS&UnitiServe) as well as high-end ethernet cables.  I use a mix of Sarum and Chord C-Stream.  

Interesting that you have DR on digital side, I have it on analog side based on few people & sales persons comments. Thought I have not done the comparison.

I agree that ethernet cables are important. I use Audioquest Diamond & Vodka. Have C-Stream as well but not in use currently. Actually quite a big impact. Could be interesting to compare Melco. I bet that impact is same level. Switch between NAS & NDS is also good to separate hifi from other network (if possible). Linear power supplies tips could be usefull QNAP, HP switch.

Well I spent several hours today "just listening" and avoiding attempts to make a comparison - just enjoy the music.

Ultimately I found the treble too splashy and bright, to the point that it was quite distracting and I didn't enjoy the music . It also felt like some of the musicality had been lost, it sounded forced. 

So I'm now back to single 555PS. Two clearly work for some people and that's totally fine, just it's not for me. Well at least I have saved myself six grand...

Now to figure out which is preferable. Melco or no Melco...

Six grand is a nice saving. If it works for you, it works. And if it don't, then it don't. So it goes. The only question I'd be asking for completeness is how many hours the second 555PS has on  it.

Harry,

I asked just that when UHES came around to install it. "Yes, it's nicely run in was their answer". I didn't ask anything more specific because I trust them and I know they know their stuff. 

What is also interesting is that when I first did this comparison (at UHES with the full Statement to passive S600s) I was very much on the fence then, too. That was a short demo so thought it deserved a longer test. Despite that, seems my initial reaction was the right one, for me. 

Seems like you've covered all the angles, which is not surprising. Don't look like it's going to work for you. Valid result and money saved.

I came to a similar conclusion with a second 555DR on an NDS.

Although I moved the NDS on now at the time I was happy that SL IC & SC made for a better value upgrade than a second 555DR, different upgrades granted affecting different parts of the build but overall I thought SL proved better value too at the time.

Graham Clarke posted:

Ultimately I found the treble too splashy and bright, to the point that it was quite distracting and I didn't enjoy the music .

That should not be happening with the second supply - but I did have it happen to me once when freshly installing my S1 Pre instead of the 552. I found that moving the digital 555PS farther down the mains block from the Analogue plug - leaving an empty plug-in gap or two - fixed that on mine. It was not a problem when I had a 552 Pre but with the Statement Pre I had to do that, as the S1 Pre is a bit more fussy.

It does not sound like it is going to work in you system from the general results you are getting Graham, but the splashy treble is just wrong - I don't doubt you are getting it, but try the fix I described if you have time.

I don't think Naim would be using two supplies because they want to ruin the performance of the NDS for their demos, so something is not right I think.

DB.

Graham Clarke posted:

Well at least I have saved myself six grand..

There are alternatives that you could spend your money on

Graham Clarke posted:

Ultimately I found the treble too splashy and bright, to the point that it was quite distracting and I didn't enjoy the music . It also felt like some of the musicality had been lost, it sounded forced. 

Like DB said, comments does not sound right at all. I could say the opposite, no way to be bright or forced. There must be something really wrong, Ethernet side? I do not have S1 but two other pre/amp & speaker combinations did not do that either.

I did find that the two supplied widens the bandwidth of detail-retrieval at both LF and HF. I like what it does - but I did find it makes set-up on the Fraim of the Head unit (NDS in your case - CD555 in mine) more important to get right, as it does not hide anything not right.

But in the end it has to work in the system you have, so the correct result is what you prefer.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

Graham Clarke posted:

Ultimately I found the treble too splashy and bright, to the point that it was quite distracting and I didn't enjoy the music .

That should not be happening with the second supply - but I did have it happen to me once when freshly installing my S1 Pre instead of the 552. I found that moving the digital 555PS farther down the mains block from the Analogue plug - leaving an empty plug-in gap or two - fixed that on mine. It was not a problem when I had a 552 Pre but with the Statement Pre I had to do that, as the S1 Pre is a bit more fussy.

It does not sound like it is going to work in you system from the general results you are getting Graham, but the splashy treble is just wrong - I don't doubt you are getting it, but try the fix I described if you have time.

I don't think Naim would be using two supplies because they want to ruin the performance of the NDS for their demos, so something is not right I think.

DB.

Hi Gary,

I don't think further fettling of plug order is going to change this.  After I re-ordered the plugs I didn't notice any difference in SQ.  Maybe there are differences in our mains feeds - I know your house was built many years before ours.  That might explain why we've had different results.

Bear in mind also that when I say "splashy" it is a subtle thing that I'm talking about, but I do need a way to describe it   I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the equipment or the set up thereof.  Others have publicly and privately made similar comments so I think this one is just down to personal taste.  I do appreciate your guidance, thank you!

Gandalf_fi posted:

Graham Clarke posted:

Ultimately I found the treble too splashy and bright, to the point that it was quite distracting and I didn't enjoy the music . It also felt like some of the musicality had been lost, it sounded forced. 

Like DB said, comments does not sound right at all. I could say the opposite, no way to be bright or forced. There must be something really wrong, Ethernet side? I do not have S1 but two other pre/amp & speaker combinations did not do that either.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the equipment or set up, otherwise one would expect it to still sound wrong with just a single PS.

Hi Graham,

I don't think it is down to some of us preferring a distorted treble. I did find the two supplies do open-up the resolution at both ends bass and treble a lot and any problems in installation reveal themselves. For example, I could not use Fraim stacks as high as you have now got them, as although they are perfectly safe, it is not best for sound quality, as many others have also found. In the context of the space you have available it is possible the two supplies cannot be located optimally. I had to use very low shelf locations for both of my 555PS for good results.

It would be interesting to find if those that have good 2x555PS result use theirs low down in the Fraim. When I tried using mine on a high fraim stack I once used got poor results. I would say that I find the two 555PS are over-fussy to deploy to get the results they can give - but I don't think it is down to some people preferring a distorted sound, either on one supply or two. The single supply is less critical and really can't go wrong - I think you will see that Naim always use their two supplies low down in a dedicated Fraim, which is what I do.

But ultimately you need to wait until the Statement streaming box is available that will integrate all the fraim issues out of the way as well as supplies and Melco.

DB.

I used to have low down in dedicated Fraim & now low separated from other power supplies in some other brand system. NDS place is also a key as you know already. I had one 555PS temporary in floor & sound was ok but not what it supposed to be. With the right setup 2x555PS is extending lows, highs, making focals to breath, more natural & musical sounding, easier to listen, not highlighting anything. But I can agree that some people do not like it. Similar way than  putting 555PS to nDac is too much.

I accept totally that the presentation of the single supply may be preferred to a dual supply, but there should be no 'brightness' artifacts when doing the comparison. The single supply is more easy-going and I accept many will want that presentation. The dual supply does, for me, offer a lot more - significant enough that I retired my Vinyl source, as it was like many years ago when I purchased my first LP12 deck compared to the Rega2 deck - those sort of changes.

So taste - yes, but not distortion being preferred is my point.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

I accept totally that the presentation of the single supply may be preferred to a dual supply, but there should be no 'brightness' artifacts when doing the comparison. The single supply is more easy-going and I accept many will want that presentation. The dual supply does, for me, offer a lot more - significant enough that I retired my Vinyl source, as it was like many years ago when I purchased my first LP12 deck compared to the Rega2 deck - those sort of changes.

So taste - yes, but not distortion being preferred is my point.

DB.

I didn't say that the treble was distorted.  If it were that then I would tend to agree that something is actually wrong.  I said splashy, which to my ears isn't the same thing.  If I thought it distorted I would have said distorted   The second PS has changed the presentation, making the treble brighter which isn't my preference.

I get the feeling that you're trying to convince me that it does work and that I'm wrong in not liking it.  I don't see it that way.  We all hear and react differently to music and in that regard I don't see either of us being wrong, we just have different preferences.

Yes, space is limited and cable lengths potentially become a factor too.  If I were to move them lower down in the stack then something else would have to move up and that may have an SQ impact too.

attribution in the presence of numerous variables, including tastes, room, etc.

the wonders of hifi!  fascinating thread ! 

enjoy

ken

Graham Clarke posted:

Jason posted:

Graham,

I know this is a bit of a side issue and may not be much help to you, but have you tried using your NDS digital in from your TV?  I'm sure you probably have a reason for keeping the nDAC as you do, but I had an nDAC converting the TV signal until I was fortunate enough to go to an NDS.  The NDS then took the digital signal from the TV as well as doing its music duties so there was no need for the nDAC.

You could free up two shelves (nDAC and XPS), simplify your system and there would be less issues from a signal ground perspective too.

If you really are just using the nDAC for TV signal duties, this could make sense?  

Just a thought...

Jason.

Jason,

Been covered before but I suspect you've not seen my previous comments on it.  I have 3 digital sources: TV, Sky box, Panasonic BluRay DVR.  To connect them to the hifi requires 8m cables, so I'm pretty much limited to using optical cables.  NDAC has 4 of these, NDS has one.  So one issue is that I wouldn't be able to connect them all.

Second issue is complexity through having to potentially switch NDS inputs via iPad.  My wife finds it confusing enough (having to select either Stream or AV on the S1 then select correct input on NDAC) without adding a further step.

Longer term if I kept the 555PS and Melco, I'd get another mains block which would allow them all to live off the same dedicated spur.  Didn't want to spend c. £200 to do that just for the demo.

Ahh, OK Graham,

I thought there would be a good reason why you needed to retain the nDAC and now that makes sense. I was just stating the obvious really, but didn't realise you had quite as many digital inputs to cater for!  

I wish you well with the testing.

All the best.

Graham Clarke posted:

I get the feeling that you're trying to convince me that it does work and that I'm wrong in not liking it.  I don't see it that way.  We all hear and react differently to music and in that regard I don't see either of us being wrong, we just have different preferences.

We all want others to like what we like, and can't easily accept that what to us is superior, to others will be less so. It's great to be able to ask other folks for their advice on these forums but in the end you trust your own ears and what you prefer is the final arbiter. No one's right or wrong here.

Dear Tony,

Surely “everyone is" [either] “right or wrong here?"

Except me. I am always wrong! 

Best wishes from George

Graham Clarke posted:

Well I spent several hours today "just listening" and avoiding attempts to make a comparison - just enjoy the music.

Ultimately I found the treble too splashy and bright, to the point that it was quite distracting and I didn't enjoy the music . It also felt like some of the musicality had been lost, it sounded forced. 

So I'm now back to single 555PS. Two clearly work for some people and that's totally fine, just it's not for me. Well at least I have saved myself six grand...

Now to figure out which is preferable. Melco or no Melco...

Hi Graham,

What an incredible festive season for you!

 I have really enjoyed reading your journey. You may have saved yourself over 12k, not too shabby!! I did wonder if introducing the Melco in/out of your system and 2nd 555PS might have confused things but reading your posts you have everything under control. 

I also have to raise a glass to DB for his insightful and informative posts. Without his input we would all be the "poorer" on achieving and "squeezing" more % audio gains from our systems. Thank you DB. We look at investing so much into our systems and DB's advice costs nothing only time/experiment. I am now listening to my system with Musicworks block connection>500PS>552>555PS (Analogue) Gap then 555PS digital and I like it. I did have the 500 plugged straight into the wall socket. I'm not back at work until the 4th Jan, so this gives me time to evaluate further. 

Keep the posts coming Graham, DB etc. Fascinating stuff, and so much better than whats on the TV. Which reminds me Graham have you tried the "Voice" with two 555PS!!! Sorry couldn't resist!!!!

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Dear Tony,

Surely “everyone is" [either] “right or wrong here?"

Except me. I am always wrong! 

Best wishes from George

Dear George, you are correct. I plead jetlag.

tonym posted:

Graham Clarke posted:

I get the feeling that you're trying to convince me that it does work and that I'm wrong in not liking it.  I don't see it that way.  We all hear and react differently to music and in that regard I don't see either of us being wrong, we just have different preferences.

We all want others to like what we like, and can't easily accept that what to us is superior, to others will be less so. It's great to be able to ask other folks for their advice on these forums but in the end you trust your own ears and what you prefer is the final arbiter. No one's right or wrong here.

Oh, absolutely.  I think it is entirely fine for us to reach different conclusions, neither of which invalidates the other.  It isn't a binary yes/no situation.

Dustysox posted:

Graham Clarke posted:

Well I spent several hours today "just listening" and avoiding attempts to make a comparison - just enjoy the music.

Ultimately I found the treble too splashy and bright, to the point that it was quite distracting and I didn't enjoy the music . It also felt like some of the musicality had been lost, it sounded forced. 

So I'm now back to single 555PS. Two clearly work for some people and that's totally fine, just it's not for me. Well at least I have saved myself six grand...

Now to figure out which is preferable. Melco or no Melco...

Hi Graham,

What an incredible festive season for you!

 I have really enjoyed reading your journey. You may have saved yourself over 12k, not too shabby!! I did wonder if introducing the Melco in/out of your system and 2nd 555PS might have confused things but reading your posts you have everything under control. 

I also have to raise a glass to DB for his insightful and informative posts. Without his input we would all be the "poorer" on achieving and "squeezing" more % audio gains from our systems. Thank you DB. We look at investing so much into our systems and DB's advice costs nothing only time/experiment. I am now listening to my system with Musicworks block connection>500PS>552>555PS (Analogue) Gap then 555PS digital and I like it. I did have the 500 plugged straight into the wall socket. I'm not back at work until the 4th Jan, so this gives me time to evaluate further. 

Keep the posts coming Graham, DB etc. Fascinating stuff, and so much better than whats on the TV. Which reminds me Graham have you tried the "Voice" with two 555PS!!! Sorry couldn't resist!!!!

I made sure that they were introduced in a controlled manner and that I had several days to grow used to each change before making another one.  I think that process worked out OK.

Yes, Gary's posts are always insightful, I've definitely learnt a few tricks.

The Voice doesn't start for a few weeks' so it'll miss the double 555 experience

tonym posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Dear Tony,

Surely “everyone is" [either] “right or wrong here?"

Except me. I am always wrong! 

Best wishes from George

Dear George, you are correct. I plead jetlag.

Where was the holiday, Tony?